1 00:00:14,520 --> 00:00:12,330 on this episode of skeptic Oh Alex talks 2 00:00:17,040 --> 00:00:14,530 with dr. William bingston about his 3 00:00:19,710 --> 00:00:17,050 amazing research into hands-on healing I 4 00:00:22,560 --> 00:00:19,720 pulled my hands around the cages of the 5 00:00:26,159 --> 00:00:22,570 mice for about an hour a day and I 6 00:00:27,749 --> 00:00:26,169 expected at the time that healing if it 7 00:00:30,690 --> 00:00:27,759 were to work would be something 8 00:00:32,040 --> 00:00:30,700 analogous to radiation but instead the 9 00:00:34,020 --> 00:00:32,050 cancer started to grow and I thought it 10 00:00:35,970 --> 00:00:34,030 was failing tumors got bigger and bigger 11 00:00:38,790 --> 00:00:35,980 thought it wasn't working that may 12 00:00:40,260 --> 00:00:38,800 develop this ulceration on the tumor and 13 00:00:43,170 --> 00:00:40,270 I really thought it wasn't working and 14 00:00:45,450 --> 00:00:43,180 the ulceration grew and the tumor 15 00:00:48,600 --> 00:00:45,460 imploded and the mites were completely 16 00:00:51,270 --> 00:00:48,610 cured unprecedented medically never 17 00:00:53,430 --> 00:00:51,280 happened before for any reason let's 18 00:00:55,830 --> 00:00:53,440 finish the story right bill I mean so 19 00:00:58,500 --> 00:00:55,840 the world changes you receive the Nobel 20 00:01:00,810 --> 00:00:58,510 Prize for medicine cancer treatments 21 00:01:03,930 --> 00:01:00,820 around the world are revolutionized and 22 00:01:06,630 --> 00:01:03,940 this is the most highly researched area 23 00:01:09,420 --> 00:01:06,640 of medicine right now right I got all 24 00:01:11,850 --> 00:01:09,430 that right except for the entire 25 00:01:14,069 --> 00:01:11,860 scenario yes this is not that can it 26 00:01:15,719 --> 00:01:14,079 take off as you as you suggest this 27 00:01:17,730 --> 00:01:15,729 isn't something that you know therefore 28 00:01:20,789 --> 00:01:17,740 we we've cured a bunch of mice therefore 29 00:01:32,350 --> 00:01:20,799 the cancer industry falses cancer stay 30 00:01:36,170 --> 00:01:34,580 welcome to skeptic oh where we explore 31 00:01:38,870 --> 00:01:36,180 controversial science with leading 32 00:01:40,789 --> 00:01:38,880 researchers thinkers and their critics 33 00:01:42,590 --> 00:01:40,799 I'm your host Aleksic Harrison on this 34 00:01:44,719 --> 00:01:42,600 episode of skeptic oh we're going to 35 00:01:47,539 --> 00:01:44,729 look at some amazing research in the 36 00:01:49,340 --> 00:01:47,549 area of hands-on healing but I have to 37 00:01:52,249 --> 00:01:49,350 tell you what really attracted me to the 38 00:01:55,160 --> 00:01:52,259 work of dr. William Bengston is not so 39 00:01:57,560 --> 00:01:55,170 much the healing aspect of it but what 40 00:01:59,719 --> 00:01:57,570 his research means for science in 41 00:02:02,600 --> 00:01:59,729 general as I've said many times on this 42 00:02:04,940 --> 00:02:02,610 show the biggest hurdle to cross when we 43 00:02:06,590 --> 00:02:04,950 look at controversial science when we 44 00:02:08,779 --> 00:02:06,600 look at science that challenges the 45 00:02:11,930 --> 00:02:08,789 rather narrow worldview we've been 46 00:02:14,570 --> 00:02:11,940 painted in the biggest hurdle is how can 47 00:02:16,850 --> 00:02:14,580 this be how can this possibly be true 48 00:02:19,850 --> 00:02:16,860 and that to me is the question that kept 49 00:02:22,910 --> 00:02:19,860 popping into my mind as I delved into 50 00:02:25,370 --> 00:02:22,920 the work of dr. William Bengston how can 51 00:02:27,550 --> 00:02:25,380 this possibly be true here's my 52 00:02:30,860 --> 00:02:27,560 interview with dr. William Bengston 53 00:02:33,110 --> 00:02:30,870 today we welcome dr. William Bankston - 54 00:02:35,270 --> 00:02:33,120 skeptic Oh bill is a professor of 55 00:02:36,680 --> 00:02:35,280 sociology at Saint Joseph's College in 56 00:02:39,590 --> 00:02:36,690 New York where he specializes in 57 00:02:43,310 --> 00:02:39,600 research methods and statistics and is 58 00:02:45,699 --> 00:02:43,320 the author of the energy cure unraveling 59 00:02:48,250 --> 00:02:45,709 the mystery of hands on healing and 60 00:02:51,289 --> 00:02:48,260 here's the real interesting part 61 00:02:53,690 --> 00:02:51,299 dr. Bankston is an amazing healer 62 00:02:55,759 --> 00:02:53,700 himself and for the past 30 years has 63 00:02:58,789 --> 00:02:55,769 compiled a series of carefully 64 00:03:01,759 --> 00:02:58,799 controlled scientific experiments the 65 00:03:03,680 --> 00:03:01,769 challenge not only our ideas about 66 00:03:07,370 --> 00:03:03,690 healing and medicine but about energy 67 00:03:09,500 --> 00:03:07,380 about belief about science in general 68 00:03:11,150 --> 00:03:09,510 and how we practice it and a whole bunch 69 00:03:14,000 --> 00:03:11,160 of other stuff that I hope we can get to 70 00:03:16,250 --> 00:03:14,010 Bill welcome to skeptic oh thanks so 71 00:03:20,090 --> 00:03:16,260 much for joining me thanks for having me 72 00:03:24,430 --> 00:03:20,100 on Alex so bill your work is really 73 00:03:27,410 --> 00:03:24,440 quite amazing it's it's paradigm busting 74 00:03:30,379 --> 00:03:27,420 mainly because you're such a stickler 75 00:03:33,800 --> 00:03:30,389 for running good experiments and trying 76 00:03:37,340 --> 00:03:33,810 to produce good reliable results and 77 00:03:39,289 --> 00:03:37,350 data yeah that's that's my passion so so 78 00:03:41,990 --> 00:03:39,299 let's you to get get to work right and 79 00:03:43,680 --> 00:03:42,000 see what happens and let nature take its 80 00:03:45,300 --> 00:03:43,690 course and 81 00:03:48,090 --> 00:03:45,310 whenever I run an experiment I'm always 82 00:03:50,450 --> 00:03:48,100 amazed that the data never comes out the 83 00:03:52,980 --> 00:03:50,460 way I expected which pretty much means 84 00:03:55,590 --> 00:03:52,990 we don't really get this stuff yet and 85 00:03:59,460 --> 00:03:55,600 so if we can design some really tight 86 00:04:01,470 --> 00:03:59,470 experiments then nature will hopefully 87 00:04:04,440 --> 00:04:01,480 give up some of her secrets she's a 88 00:04:07,050 --> 00:04:04,450 sneaky one interesting hey tell us a 89 00:04:08,820 --> 00:04:07,060 little bit about your background your 90 00:04:11,880 --> 00:04:08,830 educational background particularly in 91 00:04:14,910 --> 00:04:11,890 sociology and that how that served you 92 00:04:17,070 --> 00:04:14,920 or maybe hasn't served you as you've 93 00:04:19,410 --> 00:04:17,080 tried to wrap your arms around this 94 00:04:22,110 --> 00:04:19,420 healing experience that you have 95 00:04:24,720 --> 00:04:22,120 well I'm traditionally trained in 96 00:04:28,470 --> 00:04:24,730 sociology which means you generally have 97 00:04:30,540 --> 00:04:28,480 a specialization or two and then it's 98 00:04:33,450 --> 00:04:30,550 pretty much assumed that you'll become 99 00:04:36,000 --> 00:04:33,460 technically proficient in designing 100 00:04:38,550 --> 00:04:36,010 studies and data analysis and things 101 00:04:41,100 --> 00:04:38,560 along those lines and I actually went a 102 00:04:44,550 --> 00:04:41,110 little bit farther down those lines I'm 103 00:04:46,380 --> 00:04:44,560 kind of into interested in advanced 104 00:04:49,080 --> 00:04:46,390 statistical modeling and things along 105 00:04:53,670 --> 00:04:49,090 those lines I don't know that the 106 00:04:57,120 --> 00:04:53,680 sociology training other than focusing 107 00:04:58,920 --> 00:04:57,130 me on becoming very very rigorous really 108 00:05:03,150 --> 00:04:58,930 helped in healing I didn't I didn't see 109 00:05:06,180 --> 00:05:03,160 that as a career path it did help in 110 00:05:10,080 --> 00:05:06,190 terms of interpretation of some data 111 00:05:15,630 --> 00:05:10,090 though I have to speculate on that in my 112 00:05:17,940 --> 00:05:15,640 experiments I found that some anomalous 113 00:05:19,620 --> 00:05:17,950 results even within the context of the 114 00:05:22,770 --> 00:05:19,630 anomalies that I normally get from 115 00:05:24,600 --> 00:05:22,780 healing that sometimes the experimental 116 00:05:27,510 --> 00:05:24,610 and control groups become bound together 117 00:05:30,090 --> 00:05:27,520 and I've started to think about this in 118 00:05:32,430 --> 00:05:30,100 terms of maybe this has to do from a 119 00:05:34,740 --> 00:05:32,440 sociological standpoint of group 120 00:05:37,230 --> 00:05:34,750 boundaries sociologists are interested 121 00:05:39,150 --> 00:05:37,240 in groups and how they form and what 122 00:05:42,450 --> 00:05:39,160 they do and the consequences of it and 123 00:05:45,600 --> 00:05:42,460 in my experimental studies much to my 124 00:05:46,920 --> 00:05:45,610 surprise I discovered group boundaries 125 00:05:50,640 --> 00:05:46,930 that I didn't see coming so that 126 00:05:52,650 --> 00:05:50,650 sometimes there's I guess in the popular 127 00:05:55,170 --> 00:05:52,660 terminology that becomes almost like an 128 00:05:57,749 --> 00:05:55,180 entanglement among members of an 129 00:06:00,299 --> 00:05:57,759 experiment and the anomalies per 130 00:06:01,679 --> 00:06:00,309 even more anomalies you know that's 131 00:06:03,299 --> 00:06:01,689 that's interesting and that's a whole 132 00:06:05,879 --> 00:06:03,309 area we could get into it I think you 133 00:06:07,559 --> 00:06:05,889 know entanglement and also this idea of 134 00:06:09,600 --> 00:06:07,569 groups and it has to do with 135 00:06:11,820 --> 00:06:09,610 experimentally what that means in terms 136 00:06:15,450 --> 00:06:11,830 of what is a control group and how the 137 00:06:17,850 --> 00:06:15,460 placebo you even say might drift over 138 00:06:19,920 --> 00:06:17,860 into the into the group but what what 139 00:06:22,529 --> 00:06:19,930 also struck me and what I was getting at 140 00:06:23,640 --> 00:06:22,539 is you know here's a guy when you when 141 00:06:25,170 --> 00:06:23,650 you hear you're sure and I want you to 142 00:06:27,089 --> 00:06:25,180 tell folks a little bit about your story 143 00:06:28,980 --> 00:06:27,099 of how you got into healing you know I 144 00:06:30,839 --> 00:06:28,990 don't think many people would go great 145 00:06:32,969 --> 00:06:30,849 well let's run an experiment and let's 146 00:06:35,939 --> 00:06:32,979 run it this way you know the first thing 147 00:06:38,850 --> 00:06:35,949 because you have to be blown away at 148 00:06:40,619 --> 00:06:38,860 just what happens when you encounter 149 00:06:43,019 --> 00:06:40,629 this healing and yet your first thought 150 00:06:44,850 --> 00:06:43,029 was where's the data how do I produce 151 00:06:46,950 --> 00:06:44,860 the data how do I run an experiment so 152 00:06:48,679 --> 00:06:46,960 maybe let me run the tape backwards in 153 00:06:52,769 --> 00:06:48,689 start and tell folks a little bit about 154 00:06:54,749 --> 00:06:52,779 how you first encountered the healing 155 00:06:56,579 --> 00:06:54,759 phenomena and I guess you encountered it 156 00:06:59,339 --> 00:06:56,589 with with someone else not in yourself 157 00:07:01,920 --> 00:06:59,349 and then you got interested in it yeah I 158 00:07:04,499 --> 00:07:01,930 ran into a guy who was a who claimed 159 00:07:08,610 --> 00:07:04,509 that he had become spontaneously psychic 160 00:07:11,189 --> 00:07:08,620 and I was skeptical I always begin from 161 00:07:13,199 --> 00:07:11,199 a skeptical point of view and so I gave 162 00:07:17,309 --> 00:07:13,209 him a couple of things very informally 163 00:07:19,320 --> 00:07:17,319 to do readings on and such and i I 164 00:07:21,899 --> 00:07:19,330 couldn't trip him up it was it was very 165 00:07:24,989 --> 00:07:21,909 annoying so he would do readings on 166 00:07:27,269 --> 00:07:24,999 personal items wallets and rings and 167 00:07:30,209 --> 00:07:27,279 things like that and until too many 168 00:07:32,670 --> 00:07:30,219 detail things and and as you say I 169 00:07:34,949 --> 00:07:32,680 identified to what how am i deluding 170 00:07:37,019 --> 00:07:34,959 myself how can I make this effect go 171 00:07:38,790 --> 00:07:37,029 away so I designed for example a 172 00:07:43,110 --> 00:07:38,800 double-blind study in the hospital 173 00:07:45,089 --> 00:07:43,120 whereby patients coming in would sign a 174 00:07:47,249 --> 00:07:45,099 blank index card if they were silly 175 00:07:49,230 --> 00:07:47,259 enough to do that and that would be put 176 00:07:51,209 --> 00:07:49,240 into an opaque envelope which we would 177 00:07:52,799 --> 00:07:51,219 be put into another opaque envelope and 178 00:07:54,299 --> 00:07:52,809 then I would pick up the opaque 179 00:07:58,170 --> 00:07:54,309 envelopes and I wouldn't have any idea 180 00:08:01,829 --> 00:07:58,180 even if it was a male or a female ID I 181 00:08:04,230 --> 00:08:01,839 gave these to this this newly minted 182 00:08:05,790 --> 00:08:04,240 psychic and he would physical reading on 183 00:08:07,829 --> 00:08:05,800 them and then I probably broke a whole 184 00:08:11,730 --> 00:08:07,839 lot of laws and had somebody on the 185 00:08:13,950 --> 00:08:11,740 inside look at the the medical records 186 00:08:15,659 --> 00:08:13,960 to see if he was accurate bill what kind 187 00:08:18,029 --> 00:08:15,669 of reading would he give him what would 188 00:08:19,830 --> 00:08:18,039 he say if he has an envelope inside an 189 00:08:22,409 --> 00:08:19,840 envelope with an index card and just 190 00:08:24,420 --> 00:08:22,419 someone's name scribbled on it what kind 191 00:08:25,890 --> 00:08:24,430 of information could he give you oh he 192 00:08:27,719 --> 00:08:25,900 would give detailed information he would 193 00:08:29,909 --> 00:08:27,729 say you got a gallbladder problem so 194 00:08:32,399 --> 00:08:29,919 something along those lines so he'd say 195 00:08:35,639 --> 00:08:32,409 the lungs are filled with fluid he would 196 00:08:37,589 --> 00:08:35,649 say there's paint in this area the 197 00:08:43,219 --> 00:08:37,599 things along those lines there's a tumor 198 00:08:45,360 --> 00:08:43,229 that is located here and and it was 199 00:08:48,060 --> 00:08:45,370 actually pretty startling when I went 200 00:08:49,500 --> 00:08:48,070 back and got the confirmation of this I 201 00:08:51,900 --> 00:08:49,510 actually thought I had him in a mistake 202 00:08:54,410 --> 00:08:51,910 but the hospital had made a mistake so 203 00:08:56,250 --> 00:08:54,420 the person that he had diagnosed was 204 00:08:57,600 --> 00:08:56,260 accurate the hospital had made a 205 00:08:59,760 --> 00:08:57,610 misdiagnosis they came back a month 206 00:09:02,970 --> 00:08:59,770 later and found out that you know his 207 00:09:04,949 --> 00:09:02,980 original ideals right okay yeah it was 208 00:09:06,360 --> 00:09:04,959 pretty nutty but I couldn't make the 209 00:09:09,780 --> 00:09:06,370 effect go away which was pretty annoying 210 00:09:12,210 --> 00:09:09,790 and and so I started to pay attention to 211 00:09:15,449 --> 00:09:12,220 this guy and as he was doing these 212 00:09:17,940 --> 00:09:15,459 physical readings this naturally morphed 213 00:09:20,579 --> 00:09:17,950 into the people he was doing physical 214 00:09:22,199 --> 00:09:20,589 readings on were claiming that the 215 00:09:25,800 --> 00:09:22,209 conditions were being helped on their 216 00:09:29,069 --> 00:09:25,810 end and both he and I thought that was 217 00:09:31,920 --> 00:09:29,079 nuts so let's say someone has a migraine 218 00:09:33,540 --> 00:09:31,930 headache and he does a reading on a 219 00:09:34,650 --> 00:09:33,550 person who has a migraine headache now 220 00:09:36,030 --> 00:09:34,660 he doesn't know their about migraine 221 00:09:37,380 --> 00:09:36,040 headache he's holding something of 222 00:09:39,389 --> 00:09:37,390 theirs and he would get that ache and 223 00:09:41,400 --> 00:09:39,399 and the people would say you know what 224 00:09:44,730 --> 00:09:41,410 such-and-such hour my headache left and 225 00:09:46,290 --> 00:09:44,740 it was too coincidental it was at a 226 00:09:48,030 --> 00:09:46,300 particular hour he'd get it it would 227 00:09:49,110 --> 00:09:48,040 leave them and so we're both scratching 228 00:09:51,120 --> 00:09:49,120 our head going you know what could it 229 00:09:52,680 --> 00:09:51,130 mean you know one of the amazing things 230 00:09:56,130 --> 00:09:52,690 about this whole account this whole 231 00:09:59,610 --> 00:09:56,140 story of you and Bennett is that it's so 232 00:10:01,800 --> 00:09:59,620 counter anti New Age ish you know here 233 00:10:04,319 --> 00:10:01,810 are two guys who are saying what the 234 00:10:06,900 --> 00:10:04,329 heck's going on healing why does 235 00:10:09,300 --> 00:10:06,910 everything you're not going to find 236 00:10:11,370 --> 00:10:09,310 guidance here you're not being you're 237 00:10:14,550 --> 00:10:11,380 not even looking in that direction and 238 00:10:16,829 --> 00:10:14,560 yet you're the data again as you say is 239 00:10:19,079 --> 00:10:16,839 just pulling you there so what's the 240 00:10:22,890 --> 00:10:19,089 next step for you and trying to make 241 00:10:25,530 --> 00:10:22,900 this technique operational and how did 242 00:10:29,400 --> 00:10:25,540 you get pulled into it well I pulled it 243 00:10:32,280 --> 00:10:29,410 by having myself fixed which was my next 244 00:10:34,170 --> 00:10:32,290 layer of annoyance I had had a 245 00:10:37,019 --> 00:10:34,180 chronically bad back for a bunch of 246 00:10:38,569 --> 00:10:37,029 years and and I had previously been a 247 00:10:41,460 --> 00:10:38,579 competitive swimmer and had to give up 248 00:10:45,990 --> 00:10:41,470 competitive swimming because of the bad 249 00:10:47,249 --> 00:10:46,000 back and as this guy Bennett is is he 250 00:10:49,009 --> 00:10:47,259 and I are going through and we're doing 251 00:10:51,439 --> 00:10:49,019 these readings and such and and 252 00:10:53,819 --> 00:10:51,449 gathering all these silly anecdotes 253 00:10:56,639 --> 00:10:53,829 suddenly it occurred to me you know you 254 00:10:58,920 --> 00:10:56,649 big dope you're in pain all the time ask 255 00:11:00,420 --> 00:10:58,930 the guy to try to help so I thought well 256 00:11:02,009 --> 00:11:00,430 maybe if I give him something he'll do a 257 00:11:05,519 --> 00:11:02,019 reading on me and maybe he can have my 258 00:11:07,800 --> 00:11:05,529 back he picked up the pain just as I 259 00:11:11,670 --> 00:11:07,810 thought of that I didn't actually give 260 00:11:13,499 --> 00:11:11,680 him an object and I said put your hands 261 00:11:15,629 --> 00:11:13,509 on my back and he said then and do what 262 00:11:17,519 --> 00:11:15,639 I said I don't know fix it and and so he 263 00:11:20,910 --> 00:11:17,529 put his hands on my back and quite 264 00:11:22,710 --> 00:11:20,920 astonishingly he did fix it I was the 265 00:11:27,569 --> 00:11:22,720 first person he ever deliberately healed 266 00:11:29,309 --> 00:11:27,579 with hands on and so we went from this 267 00:11:32,129 --> 00:11:29,319 and so what do we do with this and we 268 00:11:33,870 --> 00:11:32,139 started to watch people put hands on 269 00:11:37,139 --> 00:11:33,880 people and see what happens and 270 00:11:40,350 --> 00:11:37,149 sometimes pain was alleviated sometimes 271 00:11:42,629 --> 00:11:40,360 fast sometimes not so fast and in 272 00:11:45,120 --> 00:11:42,639 watching this on a couple hundred people 273 00:11:49,259 --> 00:11:45,130 it started to pattern started to emerge 274 00:11:51,300 --> 00:11:49,269 that for example malignant growths 275 00:11:54,600 --> 00:11:51,310 responded very very quickly 276 00:11:56,970 --> 00:11:54,610 benign growths didn't so if he put his 277 00:11:59,579 --> 00:11:56,980 hands for example on a wart nothing 278 00:12:02,730 --> 00:11:59,589 would happen nothing at all if he put 279 00:12:05,220 --> 00:12:02,740 his hands on it on a lump that turned 280 00:12:07,019 --> 00:12:05,230 out through medical diagnosis to be 281 00:12:09,629 --> 00:12:07,029 malignant the thing would respond very 282 00:12:12,389 --> 00:12:09,639 very quickly and dramatically and so it 283 00:12:14,490 --> 00:12:12,399 turned out that some things he could do 284 00:12:15,900 --> 00:12:14,500 and some things he couldn't do and among 285 00:12:18,389 --> 00:12:15,910 the things he was particularly good at 286 00:12:20,340 --> 00:12:18,399 were malignant tumors and Bill let me 287 00:12:22,290 --> 00:12:20,350 interject here because from a little bit 288 00:12:26,670 --> 00:12:22,300 I know of your work you're very careful 289 00:12:29,610 --> 00:12:26,680 about drawing too many conclusions from 290 00:12:31,740 --> 00:12:29,620 what that means or what's behind that 291 00:12:33,840 --> 00:12:31,750 you're more or less just seeing the 292 00:12:35,040 --> 00:12:33,850 patterns that exist and the personal 293 00:12:37,110 --> 00:12:35,050 experience I mean for example your 294 00:12:38,570 --> 00:12:37,120 healing I mean you go on and you're a 295 00:12:40,610 --> 00:12:38,580 pretty darn competitive 296 00:12:42,290 --> 00:12:40,620 tennis player and I hear ping pong 297 00:12:43,880 --> 00:12:42,300 player and all the rest so I mean your 298 00:12:46,310 --> 00:12:43,890 back is obviously healed you got the 299 00:12:49,310 --> 00:12:46,320 proof there but tell us a little bit 300 00:12:51,829 --> 00:12:49,320 about you the experiments that you've 301 00:12:52,940 --> 00:12:51,839 run clinically and people need to know 302 00:12:55,430 --> 00:12:52,950 these are experiments you've run 303 00:12:57,440 --> 00:12:55,440 clinically in university labs I mean 304 00:12:59,360 --> 00:12:57,450 this isn't just a guy in as a kitchen 305 00:12:59,690 --> 00:12:59,370 you know I think people come in and do 306 00:13:01,280 --> 00:12:59,700 stuff 307 00:13:03,620 --> 00:13:01,290 I mean you've run some really pretty 308 00:13:04,639 --> 00:13:03,630 rigorous experiments tell us about some 309 00:13:06,590 --> 00:13:04,649 of those I think people would just be 310 00:13:09,829 --> 00:13:06,600 amazed and and what you've found in some 311 00:13:11,389 --> 00:13:09,839 of those and I guess obviously what what 312 00:13:13,130 --> 00:13:11,399 you were getting to you know what drove 313 00:13:17,230 --> 00:13:13,140 you to design the experiment the way 314 00:13:21,620 --> 00:13:17,240 that you did well starting from these 315 00:13:24,079 --> 00:13:21,630 clinical observations and they were kind 316 00:13:27,259 --> 00:13:24,089 of case-by-case relatively haphazard 317 00:13:29,269 --> 00:13:27,269 observations that for example malignant 318 00:13:31,009 --> 00:13:29,279 growths respond quickly and benign 319 00:13:32,720 --> 00:13:31,019 growths don't respond so quickly or 320 00:13:35,690 --> 00:13:32,730 sometimes not at all 321 00:13:36,980 --> 00:13:35,700 you thought to myself how do we how 322 00:13:40,090 --> 00:13:36,990 we're going to get a handle on this how 323 00:13:43,430 --> 00:13:40,100 are we gonna go from spontaneous 324 00:13:45,560 --> 00:13:43,440 clinical haphazard kind of experience to 325 00:13:47,060 --> 00:13:45,570 very controlled conditions something 326 00:13:50,150 --> 00:13:47,070 along the lines of when I study I 327 00:13:52,400 --> 00:13:50,160 designed the double-blind study of doing 328 00:13:53,690 --> 00:13:52,410 readings in a hospital what's the 329 00:13:55,430 --> 00:13:53,700 difference between hanging out in the 330 00:13:58,000 --> 00:13:55,440 living room and doing something under 331 00:14:00,889 --> 00:13:58,010 controlled conditions and sometimes 332 00:14:03,519 --> 00:14:00,899 there there have been in the past some 333 00:14:06,470 --> 00:14:03,529 problems trying to make this transition 334 00:14:08,900 --> 00:14:06,480 so the freedom that people have in the 335 00:14:11,600 --> 00:14:08,910 normal world when they bring it into the 336 00:14:12,860 --> 00:14:11,610 lab sometimes it gets stymied and I 337 00:14:17,060 --> 00:14:12,870 wanted to find out if that would be the 338 00:14:21,290 --> 00:14:17,070 case so I wanted an absolute airtight no 339 00:14:23,660 --> 00:14:21,300 question about it test that if it worked 340 00:14:26,540 --> 00:14:23,670 you didn't have a viable counter 341 00:14:28,160 --> 00:14:26,550 hypothesis so we're not talking about as 342 00:14:31,550 --> 00:14:28,170 something that was interesting but 343 00:14:33,340 --> 00:14:31,560 rather a slam dunk and since this guy 344 00:14:36,800 --> 00:14:33,350 seemed to be particularly good on 345 00:14:38,360 --> 00:14:36,810 malignant growths I thought well let's 346 00:14:39,829 --> 00:14:38,370 see if we can get a study with malignant 347 00:14:43,100 --> 00:14:39,839 growths under controlled laboratory 348 00:14:45,530 --> 00:14:43,110 conditions and so a friend of mine Dave 349 00:14:49,900 --> 00:14:45,540 Presley was associated with City 350 00:14:51,660 --> 00:14:49,910 University of New York in an academic 351 00:14:53,430 --> 00:14:51,670 professorship and 352 00:14:55,950 --> 00:14:53,440 he called it a bunch of favours there 353 00:14:57,870 --> 00:14:55,960 and he called in a bunch of favors with 354 00:15:00,420 --> 00:14:57,880 the biology department and said where 355 00:15:02,030 --> 00:15:00,430 can we get really an airtight no 356 00:15:04,770 --> 00:15:02,040 question about it 357 00:15:06,570 --> 00:15:04,780 really tight experimental model and they 358 00:15:08,730 --> 00:15:06,580 were working for twenty years on a 359 00:15:11,580 --> 00:15:08,740 particular memory cancer in laboratory 360 00:15:14,910 --> 00:15:11,590 mice and the laboratory cancers in the 361 00:15:16,050 --> 00:15:14,920 in the mice they know exactly what's 362 00:15:17,850 --> 00:15:16,060 going to happen there were literally 363 00:15:20,280 --> 00:15:17,860 thousands of published studies on these 364 00:15:21,780 --> 00:15:20,290 mice and they get injected with a 365 00:15:24,150 --> 00:15:21,790 particular form of cancer there 366 00:15:26,400 --> 00:15:24,160 particularly bred they're actually 367 00:15:27,690 --> 00:15:26,410 pretty inbred and after they're injected 368 00:15:29,010 --> 00:15:27,700 you know exactly what's going to happen 369 00:15:30,840 --> 00:15:29,020 the tumor is going to grow it's going to 370 00:15:33,390 --> 00:15:30,850 be non-metastatic it's going to kill the 371 00:15:35,720 --> 00:15:33,400 mouse in a certain number of days and at 372 00:15:38,970 --> 00:15:35,730 the time we started this the Rickard 373 00:15:40,740 --> 00:15:38,980 living Mouse was twenty seven days no 374 00:15:42,750 --> 00:15:40,750 mouse and literally thousands of 375 00:15:44,520 --> 00:15:42,760 experiments had lived longer than twenty 376 00:15:47,010 --> 00:15:44,530 seven days after injection with this 377 00:15:48,960 --> 00:15:47,020 particular mammary cancer and you know 378 00:15:50,520 --> 00:15:48,970 exactly how many mice would die on what 379 00:15:53,610 --> 00:15:50,530 particular day after injection because 380 00:15:56,280 --> 00:15:53,620 it's again very well documented found in 381 00:15:59,970 --> 00:15:56,290 labs all over the world so we said this 382 00:16:02,580 --> 00:15:59,980 is perfect but mice presumably don't 383 00:16:05,910 --> 00:16:02,590 believe much maybe this has nothing to 384 00:16:08,340 --> 00:16:05,920 his belief we didn't believe much we 385 00:16:09,510 --> 00:16:08,350 were just observing maybe it's doesn't 386 00:16:11,640 --> 00:16:09,520 make any difference for the healer or 387 00:16:13,350 --> 00:16:11,650 the Healey bleats let's find out if 388 00:16:16,790 --> 00:16:13,360 there's a real underlying biological 389 00:16:19,770 --> 00:16:16,800 mechanism going on so it turned out that 390 00:16:21,090 --> 00:16:19,780 this original guy Ben was not 391 00:16:22,770 --> 00:16:21,100 particularly interested in doing 392 00:16:25,800 --> 00:16:22,780 experiments I had dragged him from labs 393 00:16:27,900 --> 00:16:25,810 to labs and I think I pushed too many 394 00:16:30,450 --> 00:16:27,910 buttons and he kind of backed out and 395 00:16:32,940 --> 00:16:30,460 then I was left with we have 396 00:16:37,560 --> 00:16:32,950 experimental mice and we have no healer 397 00:16:40,800 --> 00:16:37,570 that was a dilemma it was actually 398 00:16:43,260 --> 00:16:40,810 bordering on panic and since I had spent 399 00:16:44,700 --> 00:16:43,270 the most time with this guy Prince Lee 400 00:16:46,200 --> 00:16:44,710 suggested what are you doing now I 401 00:16:47,520 --> 00:16:46,210 thought me I'm not a healer you know you 402 00:16:49,380 --> 00:16:47,530 introduced me as somebody who has 403 00:16:50,520 --> 00:16:49,390 healing ability I've actually never 404 00:16:52,710 --> 00:16:50,530 thought of myself as someone with 405 00:16:55,050 --> 00:16:52,720 healing ability it's just this stuff 406 00:16:56,820 --> 00:16:55,060 happens when you do this stuff it's not 407 00:16:58,680 --> 00:16:56,830 I don't I don't think it's not my 408 00:17:00,120 --> 00:16:58,690 identity in any way shape or form so 409 00:17:02,100 --> 00:17:00,130 I'll just kind of hang around and you 410 00:17:04,380 --> 00:17:02,110 can produce healing if you need to so I 411 00:17:05,340 --> 00:17:04,390 put my hands around the cages of the 412 00:17:08,400 --> 00:17:05,350 mice for 413 00:17:12,120 --> 00:17:08,410 an hour a day and I expected at the time 414 00:17:15,270 --> 00:17:12,130 that healing if it were to work would be 415 00:17:18,029 --> 00:17:15,280 something analogous to radiation so if 416 00:17:21,720 --> 00:17:18,039 you take mice and you radiate them you 417 00:17:24,090 --> 00:17:21,730 can kill the radiated cells and I 418 00:17:25,829 --> 00:17:24,100 thought well forget these mice close 419 00:17:29,220 --> 00:17:25,839 enough to their injection time and we 420 00:17:31,470 --> 00:17:29,230 zap them as it were with healing then 421 00:17:33,360 --> 00:17:31,480 then maybe something like radiation 422 00:17:35,039 --> 00:17:33,370 occurs and we're killing the cancer or 423 00:17:36,720 --> 00:17:35,049 you know something along those lines but 424 00:17:39,330 --> 00:17:36,730 instead the cancer started to grow and I 425 00:17:41,460 --> 00:17:39,340 thought it was failing and so the tumors 426 00:17:43,200 --> 00:17:41,470 grew and I said well didn't work you 427 00:17:46,140 --> 00:17:43,210 know he gave a shock didn't work and so 428 00:17:48,930 --> 00:17:46,150 it goes and and I said let's call it off 429 00:17:50,490 --> 00:17:48,940 why I put the mice through this and I 430 00:17:52,500 --> 00:17:50,500 got talked into well go a little longer 431 00:17:54,720 --> 00:17:52,510 go a little longer so the tumors kept 432 00:17:57,149 --> 00:17:54,730 growing and I kept thinking well this 433 00:18:00,090 --> 00:17:57,159 doesn't work and I kept reading anyway 434 00:18:01,909 --> 00:18:00,100 tumors got bigger and bigger thought it 435 00:18:04,260 --> 00:18:01,919 wasn't working that may develop this 436 00:18:05,970 --> 00:18:04,270 ulceration on the tumor and I really 437 00:18:08,760 --> 00:18:05,980 thought it wasn't working and the 438 00:18:11,810 --> 00:18:08,770 ulceration grew and the tumor imploded 439 00:18:14,070 --> 00:18:11,820 and the mice were completely cured 440 00:18:16,830 --> 00:18:14,080 unprecedented medically in this 441 00:18:18,810 --> 00:18:16,840 particular biological experiment with 442 00:18:21,870 --> 00:18:18,820 these particular mice right now never 443 00:18:24,060 --> 00:18:21,880 happened before for any reason so the 444 00:18:26,610 --> 00:18:24,070 world's longest living Mouse up to me 445 00:18:29,370 --> 00:18:26,620 was 27 days and it went through this 446 00:18:32,070 --> 00:18:29,380 process of growth than ulceration and 447 00:18:34,500 --> 00:18:32,080 implosion and the mice were cured 448 00:18:35,870 --> 00:18:34,510 I used to say they remitted but I buy 449 00:18:39,149 --> 00:18:35,880 all this time that's the wrong word 450 00:18:41,360 --> 00:18:39,159 because remitted means a reduction in 451 00:18:44,940 --> 00:18:41,370 symptoms or a temporary disappearance 452 00:18:46,649 --> 00:18:44,950 these mice are cured for life so we 453 00:18:48,090 --> 00:18:46,659 watch them and we we leave them for two 454 00:18:49,680 --> 00:18:48,100 years and they live out their normal 455 00:18:52,110 --> 00:18:49,690 lifespan hanging out being completely 456 00:18:54,750 --> 00:18:52,120 happy and it goes even further than that 457 00:18:57,630 --> 00:18:54,760 we've read about the cancer the cancer 458 00:19:00,120 --> 00:18:57,640 won't take anymore so mice that are 459 00:19:02,279 --> 00:19:00,130 cured are cured for life you know one of 460 00:19:05,789 --> 00:19:02,289 the things when you hear that story in 461 00:19:07,950 --> 00:19:05,799 the unbelievab ility of it it takes you 462 00:19:09,810 --> 00:19:07,960 in so many different ways I mean what 463 00:19:12,330 --> 00:19:09,820 let's finish the story right though I 464 00:19:15,060 --> 00:19:12,340 mean so the world changes you receive 465 00:19:16,649 --> 00:19:15,070 the Nobel Prize for medicine cancer 466 00:19:18,890 --> 00:19:16,659 treatments around the world are 467 00:19:23,030 --> 00:19:18,900 revolutionized and this is the most 468 00:19:25,600 --> 00:19:23,040 a highly researched area of Medicine 469 00:19:28,430 --> 00:19:25,610 right now right I got all that right 470 00:19:31,070 --> 00:19:28,440 except for the entire scenario yes this 471 00:19:33,830 --> 00:19:31,080 is not I can it take off as you as you 472 00:19:35,330 --> 00:19:33,840 suggested that that would be my guess 473 00:19:37,460 --> 00:19:35,340 yeah so this is this isn't something 474 00:19:39,200 --> 00:19:37,470 that you know therefore we we've cured a 475 00:19:41,390 --> 00:19:39,210 bunch of mice there for the cancer 476 00:19:43,250 --> 00:19:41,400 industry falters tense we got to find 477 00:19:46,430 --> 00:19:43,260 out what's going on in and that's where 478 00:19:49,250 --> 00:19:46,440 it gets even more challenging what do 479 00:19:51,230 --> 00:19:49,260 you think is going on well i replicate 480 00:19:55,490 --> 00:19:51,240 addthis experiment now about a dozen 481 00:19:58,700 --> 00:19:55,500 times and I use sometimes not always but 482 00:20:02,050 --> 00:19:58,710 I use sometimes other people who have no 483 00:20:04,190 --> 00:20:02,060 experience in healing and who are all 484 00:20:06,260 --> 00:20:04,200 skeptics in the real sense of the word 485 00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:06,270 tell us a little bit about your process 486 00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:08,010 in terms of screening these folks I 487 00:20:13,460 --> 00:20:10,410 think it's really funny but but also 488 00:20:15,380 --> 00:20:13,470 interesting what I was able to cure a 489 00:20:18,200 --> 00:20:15,390 bunch of mice I thought to myself well 490 00:20:20,390 --> 00:20:18,210 obviously this is pretty curious and the 491 00:20:23,060 --> 00:20:20,400 first thing we need to do is is see if 492 00:20:25,250 --> 00:20:23,070 this replicates who did what to do some 493 00:20:28,520 --> 00:20:25,260 flaw in the procedure was it a fluke 494 00:20:31,340 --> 00:20:28,530 what and and there was in my mind also a 495 00:20:33,530 --> 00:20:31,350 lingering fear what if what if I can do 496 00:20:35,210 --> 00:20:33,540 it and other people can't I mean that 497 00:20:39,860 --> 00:20:35,220 would be curious but it wouldn't be very 498 00:20:42,050 --> 00:20:39,870 useful so what I did is I decided to get 499 00:20:43,850 --> 00:20:42,060 some people who had no experience in 500 00:20:46,010 --> 00:20:43,860 this trained them in the healing 501 00:20:47,900 --> 00:20:46,020 techniques that uh that Ben and I had 502 00:20:51,860 --> 00:20:47,910 worked out and see what happens when 503 00:20:55,670 --> 00:20:51,870 they do it and I went to a number of 504 00:20:58,070 --> 00:20:55,680 students um and said I'd like to do a 505 00:21:00,410 --> 00:20:58,080 healing experiment if they responded to 506 00:21:01,880 --> 00:21:00,420 me gee that's that's wonderful I like 507 00:21:04,550 --> 00:21:01,890 the stuff for I know about this stuff 508 00:21:06,860 --> 00:21:04,560 and all that I said well thank you for 509 00:21:10,520 --> 00:21:06,870 your interest and I left and he want 510 00:21:12,950 --> 00:21:10,530 them I didn't want someone who knew I 511 00:21:16,130 --> 00:21:12,960 didn't want someone who was already into 512 00:21:18,140 --> 00:21:16,140 he I wanted a really a blank slate and I 513 00:21:21,050 --> 00:21:18,150 wanted someone who my actual criteria 514 00:21:23,300 --> 00:21:21,060 was they either had to laugh in my face 515 00:21:25,750 --> 00:21:23,310 when I asked him what I when I tell them 516 00:21:30,020 --> 00:21:25,760 what I want him to do or they had to 517 00:21:31,310 --> 00:21:30,030 express extreme skepticism something 518 00:21:32,390 --> 00:21:31,320 along lines that no really what do you 519 00:21:34,400 --> 00:21:32,400 want me to do 520 00:21:36,830 --> 00:21:34,410 and I'd say I'm going to teach you for 521 00:21:38,210 --> 00:21:36,840 about six weeks on how to do some 522 00:21:39,650 --> 00:21:38,220 healing techniques and then you're going 523 00:21:40,940 --> 00:21:39,660 to get cancerous mice and you're going 524 00:21:42,500 --> 00:21:40,950 to put your hands around the cage for an 525 00:21:44,630 --> 00:21:42,510 hour a day and we're going to see what 526 00:21:46,070 --> 00:21:44,640 happens and they'd go no really what do 527 00:21:48,470 --> 00:21:46,080 you want me to do one of the things 528 00:21:50,270 --> 00:21:48,480 that's so great about this is that 529 00:21:52,010 --> 00:21:50,280 you're coming at it from such a 530 00:21:54,230 --> 00:21:52,020 different perspective than we normally 531 00:21:57,140 --> 00:21:54,240 hear again kind of contrasting it with 532 00:22:00,770 --> 00:21:57,150 so much of the new-age --is-- kind of 533 00:22:02,330 --> 00:22:00,780 ideas about healing and that's that you 534 00:22:03,800 --> 00:22:02,340 know you're not even what you said a 535 00:22:05,810 --> 00:22:03,810 minute ago bill you know you're not even 536 00:22:07,580 --> 00:22:05,820 invested in the term healer you know you 537 00:22:09,080 --> 00:22:07,590 feel a little uncomfortable like I I'm 538 00:22:10,460 --> 00:22:09,090 not a healer you know this thing just 539 00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:10,470 kind of happened I spend this experiment 540 00:22:15,050 --> 00:22:12,090 had to do it you took the same approach 541 00:22:16,910 --> 00:22:15,060 in turning this into some kind of 542 00:22:19,010 --> 00:22:16,920 methodology a technique that you could 543 00:22:21,350 --> 00:22:19,020 train other people with just again 544 00:22:23,360 --> 00:22:21,360 following the data and in the process of 545 00:22:26,420 --> 00:22:23,370 doing that I think you really give us a 546 00:22:29,330 --> 00:22:26,430 whole fresh look on assumptions that 547 00:22:31,970 --> 00:22:29,340 we've had about alternative medicine and 548 00:22:34,670 --> 00:22:31,980 healing in particular any thoughts on 549 00:22:37,910 --> 00:22:34,680 some of that on some of the the new age' 550 00:22:40,850 --> 00:22:37,920 SH beliefs that you're kind of stomping 551 00:22:42,710 --> 00:22:40,860 on here well could be honest I don't 552 00:22:46,310 --> 00:22:42,720 know that much about healing 553 00:22:48,980 --> 00:22:46,320 I don't know comparative healing systems 554 00:22:50,510 --> 00:22:48,990 and I've never studied healing and you 555 00:22:52,970 --> 00:22:50,520 know bill because it's out there the 556 00:22:54,980 --> 00:22:52,980 idea of a positive mental attitude the 557 00:22:57,350 --> 00:22:54,990 idea of visualizing those little white 558 00:22:59,450 --> 00:22:57,360 cells and red cells and having this 559 00:23:02,390 --> 00:22:59,460 little war you know all these ideas 560 00:23:03,920 --> 00:23:02,400 about about belief and even if we want 561 00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:03,930 to pull it over into the spiritual realm 562 00:23:08,450 --> 00:23:06,090 hit your local hospital there there's 563 00:23:10,820 --> 00:23:08,460 the prayer circle group right down the 564 00:23:13,310 --> 00:23:10,830 hall that's you know trying to marshal 565 00:23:15,380 --> 00:23:13,320 all this spiritual energy behind it so 566 00:23:18,410 --> 00:23:15,390 you know out in the air there's a lot of 567 00:23:19,850 --> 00:23:18,420 these other ideas that your research 568 00:23:23,450 --> 00:23:19,860 really kind of flies in the face of a 569 00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:23,460 lot of that yeah it may come really just 570 00:23:28,970 --> 00:23:25,970 from my personal orientation and and 571 00:23:32,810 --> 00:23:28,980 generically belief scares me belief 572 00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:32,820 scares me and believers scare me and by 573 00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:34,890 that I mean that sounds extreme but it 574 00:23:41,180 --> 00:23:37,170 actually is the case that that believers 575 00:23:43,070 --> 00:23:41,190 scare me because they they believe and 576 00:23:44,860 --> 00:23:43,080 and they have the delusion that they had 577 00:23:46,090 --> 00:23:44,870 the truth 578 00:23:47,950 --> 00:23:46,100 and I don't care what it is that they 579 00:23:50,590 --> 00:23:47,960 think they know or think they have the 580 00:23:52,750 --> 00:23:50,600 truth about oh they just scare me 581 00:23:56,580 --> 00:23:52,760 because I don't know anybody who has any 582 00:23:59,530 --> 00:23:56,590 truth and so you have been believers a 583 00:24:00,130 --> 00:23:59,540 tendency to act in defense of those 584 00:24:04,390 --> 00:24:00,140 beliefs 585 00:24:08,650 --> 00:24:04,400 mm-hmm and so I for example have spoken 586 00:24:10,060 --> 00:24:08,660 to sceptical organizations so I've been 587 00:24:13,720 --> 00:24:10,070 invited by you know the such-and-such 588 00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:13,730 skeptic Society and and I usually begin 589 00:24:17,350 --> 00:24:15,890 to talk to a skeptic society by saying 590 00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:17,360 I'm probably the only skeptic in the 591 00:24:23,260 --> 00:24:21,530 room that gets a Mohar um fee and they 592 00:24:25,330 --> 00:24:23,270 fold their arms and legs and contort 593 00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:25,340 their faces and things as nowhere the 594 00:24:29,500 --> 00:24:26,690 skeptic Society so you're not really 595 00:24:31,570 --> 00:24:29,510 skeptics you're believers you already 596 00:24:32,790 --> 00:24:31,580 believe that the things I haven't yet 597 00:24:36,730 --> 00:24:32,800 said are wrong 598 00:24:38,890 --> 00:24:36,740 how do those talks go well they her up 599 00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:38,900 400 her up in a Rompin and again they go 600 00:24:43,660 --> 00:24:41,210 into pretzel mode and contort themselves 601 00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:43,670 and and it's a very interesting this is 602 00:24:47,919 --> 00:24:45,050 an interesting social psychological 603 00:24:50,830 --> 00:24:47,929 phenomenon because I simply present my 604 00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:50,840 data and and so you know I have mice I 605 00:24:55,090 --> 00:24:52,610 have many experiments I have many 606 00:24:57,070 --> 00:24:55,100 experiments and all sorts of things many 607 00:24:59,169 --> 00:24:57,080 dozens and dozens of experiments and a 608 00:25:00,730 --> 00:24:59,179 variety of things in healing and the 609 00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:00,740 experiments of experiments so the issue 610 00:25:05,140 --> 00:25:02,450 is have I done something wrong 611 00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:05,150 in which case I'm absolutely interested 612 00:25:08,350 --> 00:25:06,890 in what I did wrong if I haven't done 613 00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:08,360 anything wrong and these are the results 614 00:25:12,100 --> 00:25:10,010 and it's a reliable phenomenon what's 615 00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:12,110 your beef and so they're they're 616 00:25:16,360 --> 00:25:13,850 contouring and they can't they can't 617 00:25:18,070 --> 00:25:16,370 find a flaw in what I did and sometimes 618 00:25:20,260 --> 00:25:18,080 they're oncologists in the audience and 619 00:25:21,970 --> 00:25:20,270 sometimes there's there's physicians of 620 00:25:24,100 --> 00:25:21,980 various stripe and sometimes there's 621 00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:24,110 biologists and sometimes and nobody can 622 00:25:27,730 --> 00:25:26,210 find a flaw and I'm saying hey if you 623 00:25:29,590 --> 00:25:27,740 can find a flaw you know I would say 624 00:25:31,090 --> 00:25:29,600 thank you you know if I screwed up I 625 00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:31,100 didn't know I screwed up but if I did 626 00:25:36,070 --> 00:25:33,650 show me how and I'll make it better and 627 00:25:37,780 --> 00:25:36,080 so I present the stuff and they can't 628 00:25:39,190 --> 00:25:37,790 find a hole in the stuff that I do and 629 00:25:41,650 --> 00:25:39,200 then the interesting social 630 00:25:43,810 --> 00:25:41,660 psychological phenomenon is since this 631 00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:43,820 is a skeptic society it's really not 632 00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:46,490 it's a pure society but it since it's a 633 00:25:50,140 --> 00:25:48,530 skeptic society they have a certain 634 00:25:52,360 --> 00:25:50,150 amount of social pressure they're not 635 00:25:54,790 --> 00:25:52,370 allowed to go Wow 636 00:25:55,840 --> 00:25:54,800 right they're not allowed to convert 637 00:25:57,760 --> 00:25:55,850 because they have to defend their 638 00:25:58,870 --> 00:25:57,770 beliefs because they're not skeptical 639 00:26:01,210 --> 00:25:58,880 they're believers 640 00:26:03,039 --> 00:26:01,220 and so what happens at the end is I'm 641 00:26:05,230 --> 00:26:03,049 cleaning up or doing this or that and 642 00:26:07,450 --> 00:26:05,240 the whole will start to thin out and 643 00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:07,460 such and and one by one they look around 644 00:26:13,029 --> 00:26:11,090 and to see if it's safe and they come up 645 00:26:16,450 --> 00:26:13,039 to me and they go that was great 646 00:26:19,029 --> 00:26:16,460 and then they run off because they can't 647 00:26:21,299 --> 00:26:19,039 be seating speaking to the crazy guy 648 00:26:24,070 --> 00:26:21,309 well you'd probably have the same 649 00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:24,080 reaction if you went down to the local 650 00:26:28,930 --> 00:26:26,570 church group as well you'd have this 651 00:26:30,519 --> 00:26:28,940 thing the same thing people looking 652 00:26:32,860 --> 00:26:30,529 around and wanting to know if it's okay 653 00:26:35,950 --> 00:26:32,870 to even entertain these thoughts and 654 00:26:39,009 --> 00:26:35,960 then most of them deciding that it's not 655 00:26:41,409 --> 00:26:39,019 and a few brave souls walking up and 656 00:26:44,619 --> 00:26:41,419 said in telling you their their story of 657 00:26:47,710 --> 00:26:44,629 how how it relates to them yeah but 658 00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:47,720 there are there are many more in my my 659 00:26:51,700 --> 00:26:49,610 experience or many more believers and 660 00:26:54,009 --> 00:26:51,710 skeptics and they just believe different 661 00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:54,019 things so the New Age folks are 662 00:26:57,749 --> 00:26:55,610 believers that's what I've run into 663 00:26:59,830 --> 00:26:57,759 again I am NOT I don't mean to 664 00:27:01,629 --> 00:26:59,840 generalize to everybody but my 665 00:27:03,999 --> 00:27:01,639 experience is there's a lot of believers 666 00:27:06,279 --> 00:27:04,009 among the aged folks and there's a lot 667 00:27:08,409 --> 00:27:06,289 of believers among allegedly skeptical 668 00:27:11,139 --> 00:27:08,419 societies and they simply believe 669 00:27:13,690 --> 00:27:11,149 different things and my question becomes 670 00:27:17,499 --> 00:27:13,700 well if you're simply defending your 671 00:27:20,139 --> 00:27:17,509 belief what's the point for openers but 672 00:27:21,999 --> 00:27:20,149 secondly I think an interesting question 673 00:27:24,009 --> 00:27:22,009 would be what would it take for anyone 674 00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:24,019 on any side of any fence to convert 675 00:27:28,539 --> 00:27:26,210 right you want to talk about coal 676 00:27:30,759 --> 00:27:28,549 psychology and sociology I mean you've 677 00:27:33,879 --> 00:27:30,769 just jumped right into this soup there 678 00:27:34,899 --> 00:27:33,889 yeah so if you are a non-believer in 679 00:27:36,340 --> 00:27:34,909 this stuff what would it take to 680 00:27:38,049 --> 00:27:36,350 convince you otherwise if you're a 681 00:27:40,629 --> 00:27:38,059 believer won't it take you to to flip 682 00:27:42,220 --> 00:27:40,639 again to non-belief you know and this 683 00:27:43,810 --> 00:27:42,230 could be it doesn't have to be for 684 00:27:45,940 --> 00:27:43,820 healing this could be for absolutely 685 00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:45,950 anything so I mean right now it's 686 00:27:49,930 --> 00:27:47,450 politically correct to believe in global 687 00:27:53,769 --> 00:27:49,940 warming hey more to the point in terms 688 00:27:56,769 --> 00:27:53,779 of SSC it's it's politically correct in 689 00:27:59,470 --> 00:27:56,779 the United States to believe in biotic 690 00:28:00,639 --> 00:27:59,480 oil and peak oil yeah and I mean this is 691 00:28:03,399 --> 00:28:00,649 one of the first articles I remember 692 00:28:05,889 --> 00:28:03,409 reading in the SSC the Society for 693 00:28:07,690 --> 00:28:05,899 scientific exploration journal it was 694 00:28:10,119 --> 00:28:07,700 years ago and it opened my eyes to you 695 00:28:11,779 --> 00:28:10,129 know there's over 200 peer-reviewed 696 00:28:14,389 --> 00:28:11,789 scientific leap 697 00:28:17,149 --> 00:28:14,399 pushed articles in the Russia in Russia 698 00:28:19,219 --> 00:28:17,159 in the former Soviet Union on a biotic 699 00:28:20,930 --> 00:28:19,229 oil the idea that oil is created 700 00:28:22,879 --> 00:28:20,940 naturally and they go with that 701 00:28:24,379 --> 00:28:22,889 assumption they drilled a lot further 702 00:28:26,090 --> 00:28:24,389 than there could ever be any dinosaurs 703 00:28:27,469 --> 00:28:26,100 and they they're producing more oil than 704 00:28:29,899 --> 00:28:27,479 anyone else in the world yeah it's 705 00:28:31,190 --> 00:28:29,909 interesting can I be open you know we're 706 00:28:33,590 --> 00:28:31,200 probably wrong about almost everything 707 00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:33,600 we believe but the real point of all 708 00:28:39,229 --> 00:28:36,330 that is just you know these ideas that 709 00:28:42,669 --> 00:28:39,239 run counter to these cherished beliefs 710 00:28:45,049 --> 00:28:42,679 that we either have personally or these 711 00:28:47,359 --> 00:28:45,059 societal beliefs that are kind of 712 00:28:50,810 --> 00:28:47,369 ingrained in the machinery of the way 713 00:28:53,690 --> 00:28:50,820 things work are very very hard to 714 00:28:54,859 --> 00:28:53,700 overcome so I mean I guess I have to 715 00:28:58,969 --> 00:28:54,869 push a little bit against that whole 716 00:29:01,009 --> 00:28:58,979 anomalistic psychology crap that I I see 717 00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:01,019 out there is that you know gee why do 718 00:29:04,430 --> 00:29:03,330 people believe weird things and stuff 719 00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:04,440 like that I mean that has gone 720 00:29:09,109 --> 00:29:06,690 absolutely nowhere or it's been 721 00:29:12,619 --> 00:29:09,119 counterproductive to really trying to 722 00:29:15,229 --> 00:29:12,629 understand in a deeper way what's really 723 00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:15,239 going on so right I don't know well but 724 00:29:20,989 --> 00:29:18,330 why is this is the Society for 725 00:29:23,389 --> 00:29:20,999 scientific exploration an organization 726 00:29:25,460 --> 00:29:23,399 that you are the president of currently 727 00:29:27,830 --> 00:29:25,470 and is a very serious scientific 728 00:29:30,409 --> 00:29:27,840 organization I mean the mere fact that 729 00:29:34,159 --> 00:29:30,419 it's necessary and the mere fact that it 730 00:29:35,749 --> 00:29:34,169 covers such a broad range of topics and 731 00:29:38,119 --> 00:29:35,759 that was my whole reason for getting off 732 00:29:40,460 --> 00:29:38,129 on the biotic oil thing you know I mean 733 00:29:42,169 --> 00:29:40,470 it covers the whole range of topics the 734 00:29:44,119 --> 00:29:42,179 fact that it's even necessary is a 735 00:29:46,249 --> 00:29:44,129 little bit depressing a little bit 736 00:29:51,019 --> 00:29:46,259 frustrating alright I would I would 737 00:29:53,359 --> 00:29:51,029 completely agree the the SSC which any 738 00:29:56,060 --> 00:29:53,369 of your listeners can look at it Society 739 00:29:59,599 --> 00:29:56,070 for scientific exploration or scientific 740 00:30:01,729 --> 00:29:59,609 exploration org is as you point out a 741 00:30:04,999 --> 00:30:01,739 group of people who are serious about 742 00:30:06,999 --> 00:30:05,009 research uh they're not going to they 743 00:30:09,710 --> 00:30:07,009 don't sit together and just talk about 744 00:30:12,859 --> 00:30:09,720 things in the abstract you gotta show me 745 00:30:16,729 --> 00:30:12,869 the data and they come from all sorts of 746 00:30:19,879 --> 00:30:16,739 fields so the the actual society was 747 00:30:22,430 --> 00:30:19,889 founded by a combination of folks like 748 00:30:24,139 --> 00:30:22,440 the head of astrophysics at Stanford the 749 00:30:25,580 --> 00:30:24,149 Dean of engineering and Princeton the 750 00:30:28,340 --> 00:30:25,590 head of astronomy 751 00:30:31,070 --> 00:30:28,350 University of Virginia uh folks like 752 00:30:33,830 --> 00:30:31,080 that who came together and said there's 753 00:30:36,860 --> 00:30:33,840 too much scientific straightjacket 754 00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:36,870 activity going on you're allowed to look 755 00:30:39,740 --> 00:30:38,250 at certain things you're not allowed to 756 00:30:43,820 --> 00:30:39,750 look at other things and it turns out 757 00:30:47,539 --> 00:30:43,830 that a whole lot of scientists have 758 00:30:49,610 --> 00:30:47,549 almost like a closet life so on in in 759 00:30:52,820 --> 00:30:49,620 the public in the peer-reviewed journals 760 00:30:54,049 --> 00:30:52,830 in their conventional day job you're 761 00:30:56,210 --> 00:30:54,059 only allowed to talk about certain 762 00:30:58,820 --> 00:30:56,220 things and there is a Canon and you're 763 00:31:00,799 --> 00:30:58,830 supposed to buy into it and you got a 764 00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:00,809 tow the party line and if you want to 765 00:31:03,230 --> 00:31:02,130 get grants you better be getting them 766 00:31:06,230 --> 00:31:03,240 for the things you're allowed to get 767 00:31:08,180 --> 00:31:06,240 grants for etcetera etc and these very 768 00:31:11,330 --> 00:31:08,190 very brave individuals who had already 769 00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:11,340 been extraordinarily successful in their 770 00:31:16,549 --> 00:31:14,730 day job careers recognized that there 771 00:31:18,710 --> 00:31:16,559 were other people like them who also had 772 00:31:22,130 --> 00:31:18,720 interest in things that you weren't 773 00:31:24,610 --> 00:31:22,140 supposed to talk about and so they 774 00:31:27,919 --> 00:31:24,620 talked about healing they talked about 775 00:31:30,019 --> 00:31:27,929 UFOs they talked about all sorts of 776 00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:30,029 stuff and said well let's let's get 777 00:31:35,299 --> 00:31:33,690 together and see if we can database have 778 00:31:40,039 --> 00:31:35,309 a discussion about things which are off 779 00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:40,049 limits and so in order to do this they 780 00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:41,730 created this Society for scientific 781 00:31:48,620 --> 00:31:44,970 exploration which is primarily academics 782 00:31:51,289 --> 00:31:48,630 but but folks who are not academics can 783 00:31:53,539 --> 00:31:51,299 also join as associate members and we 784 00:31:56,659 --> 00:31:53,549 have things like a peer-reviewed journal 785 00:31:58,610 --> 00:31:56,669 a journal scientific exploration we have 786 00:32:00,950 --> 00:31:58,620 annual conferences we just had one in 787 00:32:05,899 --> 00:32:00,960 Boulder in June about to have one in 788 00:32:08,090 --> 00:32:05,909 Ireland in October and we get together 789 00:32:09,320 --> 00:32:08,100 and these are data based presentations 790 00:32:12,830 --> 00:32:09,330 on stuff you're not supposed to talk 791 00:32:17,419 --> 00:32:12,840 about and we have a little you know 792 00:32:19,279 --> 00:32:17,429 inside dictum there that says if you're 793 00:32:22,310 --> 00:32:19,289 an academic and you want to look at this 794 00:32:24,169 --> 00:32:22,320 stuff and you want to take a chance on 795 00:32:27,139 --> 00:32:24,179 some of this stuff and want to actually 796 00:32:30,980 --> 00:32:27,149 do research and gather data first get 797 00:32:33,649 --> 00:32:30,990 tenure you're right right so I actually 798 00:32:36,950 --> 00:32:33,659 had a couple of years ago I was given a 799 00:32:39,409 --> 00:32:36,960 talk and some newly minted PhD from 800 00:32:40,729 --> 00:32:39,419 Australia came up to me and said 801 00:32:42,019 --> 00:32:40,739 well your stuff is the most amazing 802 00:32:44,509 --> 00:32:42,029 thing I've ever seen I want to work with 803 00:32:47,479 --> 00:32:44,519 you I want to study this I want to and I 804 00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:47,489 said get away from me get dinner okay so 805 00:32:50,299 --> 00:32:48,690 what do we get away from me I want to 806 00:32:51,619 --> 00:32:50,309 devote my life to this I said get away 807 00:32:55,849 --> 00:32:51,629 from me I said I'm not going to wreck 808 00:32:57,229 --> 00:32:55,859 your career come back and so he kept 809 00:32:59,810 --> 00:32:57,239 pushing him away pushing away I said 810 00:33:01,609 --> 00:32:59,820 first get tenure and he said you don't 811 00:33:04,219 --> 00:33:01,619 understand how important this is and I 812 00:33:06,169 --> 00:33:04,229 said I really do that's why I'm telling 813 00:33:09,109 --> 00:33:06,179 you yeah I'm kind of you know I've been 814 00:33:11,089 --> 00:33:09,119 in it for a while and I said but you got 815 00:33:13,039 --> 00:33:11,099 to get away from me because you you I 816 00:33:14,629 --> 00:33:13,049 mean you got your PhD you know 20 817 00:33:17,839 --> 00:33:14,639 minutes ago and I'm not going to screw 818 00:33:19,489 --> 00:33:17,849 your career so he got really mad because 819 00:33:23,209 --> 00:33:19,499 I wouldn't miss and that and about a 820 00:33:26,119 --> 00:33:23,219 year later I got a an email from him and 821 00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:26,129 he said I get it now thank you and he 822 00:33:30,979 --> 00:33:27,570 said I'll see it I'll see you in a few 823 00:33:33,139 --> 00:33:30,989 years that's that's both sad and and 824 00:33:36,409 --> 00:33:33,149 interesting at the same time 825 00:33:38,719 --> 00:33:36,419 so dr. Bankston that's fantastic and I 826 00:33:41,810 --> 00:33:38,729 really encourage people to explore the 827 00:33:44,659 --> 00:33:41,820 sse more and as you mentioned there's in 828 00:33:46,779 --> 00:33:44,669 addition to the quarterly more scholarly 829 00:33:50,599 --> 00:33:46,789 publication there's also an online 830 00:33:52,219 --> 00:33:50,609 magazine formatted kind of publication 831 00:33:53,599 --> 00:33:52,229 that they do that's really accessible 832 00:33:55,519 --> 00:33:53,609 and really great so please check that 833 00:33:57,169 --> 00:33:55,529 out but let's get back yeah that's 834 00:34:00,589 --> 00:33:57,179 called edge science and that comes out 835 00:34:02,180 --> 00:34:00,599 quarterly and it's it's kind of a it is 836 00:34:05,690 --> 00:34:02,190 it's a magazine you know written more in 837 00:34:08,269 --> 00:34:05,700 English about some of these interesting 838 00:34:10,669 --> 00:34:08,279 topics great but but I do want to bring 839 00:34:12,619 --> 00:34:10,679 people back to some of the other 840 00:34:14,569 --> 00:34:12,629 experiments you've done because I think 841 00:34:16,129 --> 00:34:14,579 they're just going to be fascinating and 842 00:34:19,399 --> 00:34:16,139 I hope they're going to inspire people 843 00:34:21,139 --> 00:34:19,409 to really dig into this and challenge 844 00:34:22,549 --> 00:34:21,149 some of their beliefs that they might 845 00:34:26,809 --> 00:34:22,559 have a couple of them I want you to 846 00:34:29,930 --> 00:34:26,819 touch on the MRI envelope experiment I 847 00:34:32,059 --> 00:34:29,940 think you know what I mean yeah this 848 00:34:36,019 --> 00:34:32,069 interesting among the the interesting 849 00:34:39,700 --> 00:34:36,029 questions to me in is is what are the 850 00:34:42,169 --> 00:34:39,710 conditions under which healing occurs 851 00:34:45,619 --> 00:34:42,179 what makes it stronger what makes it 852 00:34:48,259 --> 00:34:45,629 weaker what happens to the healer what 853 00:34:50,509 --> 00:34:48,269 happens to the Healy things along those 854 00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:50,519 lines and turns out we don't know a 855 00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:52,410 whole lot about this stuff 856 00:34:56,900 --> 00:34:54,810 the states of consciousness matter do 857 00:35:00,410 --> 00:34:56,910 there's a particular sense of awareness 858 00:35:02,180 --> 00:35:00,420 matter or could be even be something you 859 00:35:04,730 --> 00:35:02,190 were talking about earlier does belief 860 00:35:05,900 --> 00:35:04,740 matter you know and it turns out that as 861 00:35:08,420 --> 00:35:05,910 far as I can tell belief doesn't matter 862 00:35:11,390 --> 00:35:08,430 at all except maybe I think to slightly 863 00:35:13,760 --> 00:35:11,400 healing I'm not sure about that 864 00:35:15,710 --> 00:35:13,770 but but I don't think there's a net gain 865 00:35:18,890 --> 00:35:15,720 I don't know how much there is of a loss 866 00:35:21,170 --> 00:35:18,900 for belief I think a neutral stance is 867 00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:21,180 is the preferable stance to maximize 868 00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:23,970 healing but what we were interested in 869 00:35:28,760 --> 00:35:27,210 is well what happens I mean first of all 870 00:35:31,790 --> 00:35:28,770 it's a difficult problem to figure out 871 00:35:35,180 --> 00:35:31,800 what's the right question to ask and we 872 00:35:37,820 --> 00:35:35,190 we have a brain bias so we tend to like 873 00:35:39,230 --> 00:35:37,830 to look at brains and think well maybe 874 00:35:41,510 --> 00:35:39,240 there's a correlate in the brain 875 00:35:43,130 --> 00:35:41,520 something along those lines so I've done 876 00:35:45,320 --> 00:35:43,140 a number of experiments along these 877 00:35:47,660 --> 00:35:45,330 lines with and just following along with 878 00:35:50,750 --> 00:35:47,670 the brain bias so I published in the 879 00:35:56,390 --> 00:35:50,760 journal scientific exploration I think 880 00:35:59,750 --> 00:35:56,400 in 2010 a phase-locking of two brains at 881 00:36:03,590 --> 00:35:59,760 a distance and what that really means is 882 00:36:08,300 --> 00:36:03,600 we have synchronized DG's and we're 883 00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:08,310 sampling in 19 leads on each head every 884 00:36:12,740 --> 00:36:09,690 five hundredths of a second we have this 885 00:36:14,930 --> 00:36:12,750 enormous database and it turns out that 886 00:36:17,480 --> 00:36:14,940 you can easily easily but you can you 887 00:36:20,810 --> 00:36:17,490 can get two brains at a distance to go 888 00:36:22,910 --> 00:36:20,820 into a synchrony now now let me just 889 00:36:24,440 --> 00:36:22,920 interject here that that if you weren't 890 00:36:26,960 --> 00:36:24,450 quote-unquote and I know you don't like 891 00:36:29,450 --> 00:36:26,970 this term if you weren't a healer we'd 892 00:36:32,330 --> 00:36:29,460 call this a telepathy experiment but 893 00:36:35,150 --> 00:36:32,340 your your work really kind of challenges 894 00:36:36,110 --> 00:36:35,160 even our idea of what telepathy means I 895 00:36:39,130 --> 00:36:36,120 mean if we really understand what that 896 00:36:41,300 --> 00:36:39,140 word means so yeah tell explain to folks 897 00:36:43,430 --> 00:36:41,310 again I'm sorry to interrupt you so 898 00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:43,440 finish explaining what the experiment 899 00:36:48,770 --> 00:36:47,010 did so you would have a person one in 900 00:36:51,410 --> 00:36:48,780 one room and person two in another room 901 00:36:53,420 --> 00:36:51,420 and present to in the other room just be 902 00:36:57,430 --> 00:36:53,430 hanging out hooked up to all the wires 903 00:37:01,190 --> 00:36:57,440 and the machines and person one would 904 00:37:03,200 --> 00:37:01,200 really do the techniques that I do when 905 00:37:05,510 --> 00:37:03,210 we do the mice experiments and then 906 00:37:06,050 --> 00:37:05,520 simply casually think about the other 907 00:37:08,900 --> 00:37:06,060 person in the 908 00:37:10,670 --> 00:37:08,910 the room and it turns out at the moment 909 00:37:13,090 --> 00:37:10,680 that you casually think about the other 910 00:37:14,990 --> 00:37:13,100 person in the other room you get this 911 00:37:17,450 --> 00:37:15,000 synchronization of the two brains at a 912 00:37:18,770 --> 00:37:17,460 distance now that's interesting it may 913 00:37:21,260 --> 00:37:18,780 or may not have anything to with healing 914 00:37:23,720 --> 00:37:21,270 bill explain what you mean specifically 915 00:37:26,900 --> 00:37:23,730 in terms of synchronization how did you 916 00:37:29,710 --> 00:37:26,910 measure that we mentioned it with an EEG 917 00:37:33,200 --> 00:37:29,720 which is taking a measurement of 918 00:37:38,630 --> 00:37:33,210 particular cycles per second that a 919 00:37:40,160 --> 00:37:38,640 brain is resonating and and what happens 920 00:37:43,550 --> 00:37:40,170 is when you start the healing techniques 921 00:37:46,340 --> 00:37:43,560 you get a very distinct pattern a very 922 00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:46,350 distinct frequency and then you get a 923 00:37:50,630 --> 00:37:48,450 second harmonic to that frequency going 924 00:37:52,670 --> 00:37:50,640 on at the same time and we get a third 925 00:37:53,930 --> 00:37:52,680 harmonic and we haven't measured test 926 00:37:56,150 --> 00:37:53,940 that because we can have the equipment 927 00:38:00,530 --> 00:37:56,160 so we have at least three harmonics in a 928 00:38:02,390 --> 00:38:00,540 very distinct frequency the triple 929 00:38:04,130 --> 00:38:02,400 harmonic in the brain which is exactly 930 00:38:06,650 --> 00:38:04,140 matched to the recipients brain in the 931 00:38:08,270 --> 00:38:06,660 other room and so statistically this is 932 00:38:10,940 --> 00:38:08,280 off the charts right I mean you have you 933 00:38:14,300 --> 00:38:10,950 have a stream of EEG readings of data 934 00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:14,310 and then you apply your visualization 935 00:38:19,460 --> 00:38:16,370 technique and there becomes this 936 00:38:21,470 --> 00:38:19,470 harmonic in your these actually three 937 00:38:24,230 --> 00:38:21,480 harmonics that you measured in your 938 00:38:27,130 --> 00:38:24,240 brain and the healers brain and then 939 00:38:29,750 --> 00:38:27,140 you're able to transfer that to another 940 00:38:32,210 --> 00:38:29,760 individual the receiver who obviously 941 00:38:33,950 --> 00:38:32,220 has doesn't have this pattern then all 942 00:38:35,540 --> 00:38:33,960 of a sudden has this pattern I mean the 943 00:38:38,600 --> 00:38:35,550 statistics if you were to do that would 944 00:38:40,310 --> 00:38:38,610 just be just off the charts right well 945 00:38:42,020 --> 00:38:40,320 we can't really do statistics because we 946 00:38:44,240 --> 00:38:42,030 no one's ever seen this pattern before 947 00:38:45,650 --> 00:38:44,250 you could measure that EEG you could 948 00:38:47,990 --> 00:38:45,660 break it down and do a statistical 949 00:38:50,120 --> 00:38:48,000 analysis of you know what is the chances 950 00:38:51,710 --> 00:38:50,130 that this pattern is merely by chance or 951 00:38:53,900 --> 00:38:51,720 something in there there just isn't I 952 00:38:55,880 --> 00:38:53,910 guess it is just isn't even worth 953 00:38:57,560 --> 00:38:55,890 talking about because it's not even 954 00:39:00,110 --> 00:38:57,570 worth considering that there would be 955 00:39:02,630 --> 00:39:00,120 like a chance harmonic transfer like 956 00:39:06,710 --> 00:39:02,640 that well we actually did consider the 957 00:39:10,370 --> 00:39:06,720 question and so our eg head guy who is 958 00:39:13,220 --> 00:39:10,380 jeg uncle man uh and and and certainly 959 00:39:18,080 --> 00:39:13,230 among the foremost EEG guys probably in 960 00:39:19,730 --> 00:39:18,090 the world uh uh he could testify it just 961 00:39:22,819 --> 00:39:19,740 from his experience that 962 00:39:25,640 --> 00:39:22,829 in awareness of at least 500,000 EEG 963 00:39:28,579 --> 00:39:25,650 readings literally 500,000 no one's ever 964 00:39:30,589 --> 00:39:28,589 seen this harmonic so they've never seen 965 00:39:32,589 --> 00:39:30,599 it in a single brain let alone a 966 00:39:36,410 --> 00:39:32,599 phase-locking of that to another brain 967 00:39:38,359 --> 00:39:36,420 so the pattern itself is different at 968 00:39:41,030 --> 00:39:38,369 least in his experience of about a half 969 00:39:44,599 --> 00:39:41,040 a million EEG s and the fact that it 970 00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:44,609 phase locks with another is is is really 971 00:39:49,010 --> 00:39:46,770 interesting part of it what makes this 972 00:39:52,220 --> 00:39:49,020 so challenging bill is your work is just 973 00:39:53,599 --> 00:39:52,230 so revolutionary like you just said I 974 00:39:57,440 --> 00:39:53,609 mean you really wrap your arms around it 975 00:40:00,049 --> 00:39:57,450 the first phase lock in the healer again 976 00:40:03,140 --> 00:40:00,059 I'll use that word is off the charts 977 00:40:05,510 --> 00:40:03,150 unbelievable unexplainable 10 years 978 00:40:07,210 --> 00:40:05,520 worth of research there and then the 979 00:40:09,980 --> 00:40:07,220 fact that you're able to transfer that 980 00:40:12,620 --> 00:40:09,990 quote/unquote telepathically is another 981 00:40:15,559 --> 00:40:12,630 whole area I mean how do you begin to 982 00:40:18,290 --> 00:40:15,569 even wrap your arms around this it's 983 00:40:20,599 --> 00:40:18,300 pretty interesting and you try to me 984 00:40:22,190 --> 00:40:20,609 neither find out for example I haven't 985 00:40:25,010 --> 00:40:22,200 been able to pull this off yet 986 00:40:28,190 --> 00:40:25,020 but I want to find out if the phase 987 00:40:32,000 --> 00:40:28,200 locking between two people varies by 988 00:40:35,150 --> 00:40:32,010 whether or not that person has a need so 989 00:40:37,460 --> 00:40:35,160 if we hooked up a bunch of people in the 990 00:40:39,799 --> 00:40:37,470 other room as it were and some of them 991 00:40:41,750 --> 00:40:39,809 had a need meaning a physical need and 992 00:40:46,460 --> 00:40:41,760 some of them didn't have a physical need 993 00:40:47,750 --> 00:40:46,470 you know that was at least obvious would 994 00:40:52,339 --> 00:40:47,760 there be a difference in the connection 995 00:40:54,890 --> 00:40:52,349 I want to find out whether the 996 00:40:57,079 --> 00:40:54,900 connection varies based on whether the 997 00:41:00,140 --> 00:40:57,089 the two people that we're trying to link 998 00:41:03,020 --> 00:41:00,150 have a previous connection they have 999 00:41:05,240 --> 00:41:03,030 some sort of an emotional attachment so 1000 00:41:06,770 --> 00:41:05,250 would complete strangers be different 1001 00:41:09,920 --> 00:41:06,780 than people who have a previous 1002 00:41:12,200 --> 00:41:09,930 relationship would need matter versus 1003 00:41:15,950 --> 00:41:12,210 those that don't need I have a suspicion 1004 00:41:19,640 --> 00:41:15,960 I can't I can't nail this yet but I have 1005 00:41:23,630 --> 00:41:19,650 a suspicion that healing is really 1006 00:41:26,480 --> 00:41:23,640 coming from the Healey and that it is a 1007 00:41:30,260 --> 00:41:26,490 and more of an autonomic response to 1008 00:41:32,120 --> 00:41:30,270 need than anything else so the state of 1009 00:41:33,200 --> 00:41:32,130 mind of the healer I don't think is all 1010 00:41:35,660 --> 00:41:33,210 that interesting or 1011 00:41:40,430 --> 00:41:35,670 important except that as you just said 1012 00:41:43,100 --> 00:41:40,440 you produced an EEG that is completely 1013 00:41:45,770 --> 00:41:43,110 beyond explanation from your EEG experts 1014 00:41:47,960 --> 00:41:45,780 so I don't know that's pretty pretty 1015 00:41:49,940 --> 00:41:47,970 interesting too you know but does that 1016 00:41:52,160 --> 00:41:49,950 come I mean what we need to do is follow 1017 00:41:53,950 --> 00:41:52,170 that up and find out if that becomes if 1018 00:41:56,720 --> 00:41:53,960 the signature itself becomes 1019 00:42:01,580 --> 00:41:56,730 idiosyncratic to the person expressing a 1020 00:42:03,740 --> 00:42:01,590 need so what a different if if we were 1021 00:42:06,050 --> 00:42:03,750 let's say we will hook up mice and you 1022 00:42:08,900 --> 00:42:06,060 actually can do a eg readings on mice 1023 00:42:11,930 --> 00:42:08,910 but let's say we hooked up mice and and 1024 00:42:15,830 --> 00:42:11,940 a mouse with a particular stage of 1025 00:42:17,660 --> 00:42:15,840 cancer being treated would that would 1026 00:42:20,780 --> 00:42:17,670 the readings be different at a different 1027 00:42:22,460 --> 00:42:20,790 state of cancer so as they go into 1028 00:42:26,150 --> 00:42:22,470 remission for example or they're finally 1029 00:42:28,910 --> 00:42:26,160 cured or or or would these things vary 1030 00:42:31,190 --> 00:42:28,920 the expression that's found so when you 1031 00:42:34,670 --> 00:42:31,200 look at an EEG output it's reasonably 1032 00:42:36,980 --> 00:42:34,680 static we frozen it you know I mean it 1033 00:42:39,410 --> 00:42:36,990 actually goes over time but it's not 1034 00:42:41,510 --> 00:42:39,420 over a long period of time and and so I 1035 00:42:43,910 --> 00:42:41,520 think one of our problems is we have a 1036 00:42:47,120 --> 00:42:43,920 tendency to take an extraordinarily 1037 00:42:50,180 --> 00:42:47,130 complex and dynamic nature and try to 1038 00:42:52,820 --> 00:42:50,190 reduce it to static images and maybe if 1039 00:42:55,910 --> 00:42:52,830 we find the face lock we found the phase 1040 00:42:58,940 --> 00:42:55,920 lock different at different stages of 1041 00:43:01,010 --> 00:42:58,950 the need of the Healey I built one other 1042 00:43:02,090 --> 00:43:01,020 really interesting experiment real quick 1043 00:43:03,980 --> 00:43:02,100 I'd like you to tell people about 1044 00:43:06,470 --> 00:43:03,990 because again it's just gonna send folks 1045 00:43:07,540 --> 00:43:06,480 off in a whole different mind that 1046 00:43:11,000 --> 00:43:07,550 direction 1047 00:43:13,930 --> 00:43:11,010 MRI you're hooked up to an MRI one of 1048 00:43:16,010 --> 00:43:13,940 your arms is left out of the MRI and 1049 00:43:18,860 --> 00:43:16,020 envelopes are placed in that arm 1050 00:43:21,110 --> 00:43:18,870 describe that a mind-blowing experiment 1051 00:43:23,660 --> 00:43:21,120 yeah in this one we've done a couple 1052 00:43:28,220 --> 00:43:23,670 things we've the one you're referring to 1053 00:43:31,760 --> 00:43:28,230 I was the the subject as it were it was 1054 00:43:33,350 --> 00:43:31,770 also the designer but so I was lying in 1055 00:43:33,920 --> 00:43:33,360 MRI spent a whole bunch of hours in an 1056 00:43:43,040 --> 00:43:33,930 MRI 1057 00:43:46,200 --> 00:43:43,050 can just barely get my left hand outside 1058 00:43:49,890 --> 00:43:46,210 the the enclosed area 1059 00:43:52,590 --> 00:43:49,900 and what happens is that into my hand 1060 00:43:54,570 --> 00:43:52,600 are dropped envelopes which I can feel 1061 00:43:58,260 --> 00:43:54,580 tactically you feel when an envelope 1062 00:44:00,480 --> 00:43:58,270 touches your hand so double blind people 1063 00:44:02,760 --> 00:44:00,490 are dropping envelopes into my hand some 1064 00:44:04,380 --> 00:44:02,770 of the envelopes are sham envelopes they 1065 00:44:06,630 --> 00:44:04,390 have nothing in them at all other than 1066 00:44:08,610 --> 00:44:06,640 it's an envelope and some of the 1067 00:44:11,420 --> 00:44:08,620 envelopes have pictures and hair samples 1068 00:44:15,180 --> 00:44:11,430 of cancerous animals 600 miles away 1069 00:44:17,220 --> 00:44:15,190 which we got from a veterinarian and it 1070 00:44:19,320 --> 00:44:17,230 turns out that to a hundred percent 1071 00:44:23,070 --> 00:44:19,330 accuracy my brain can tell a difference 1072 00:44:25,730 --> 00:44:23,080 and that there is a distinct outcome 1073 00:44:28,140 --> 00:44:25,740 when you drop an envelope into a 1074 00:44:30,540 --> 00:44:28,150 envelope into your hand you get a 1075 00:44:32,790 --> 00:44:30,550 particular technical response but if you 1076 00:44:34,350 --> 00:44:32,800 drop one that has a cancerous need that 1077 00:44:37,380 --> 00:44:34,360 has a picture and a hair sample of a 1078 00:44:39,330 --> 00:44:37,390 cancerous animal the brain responds very 1079 00:44:41,820 --> 00:44:39,340 differently and it responds very 1080 00:44:44,070 --> 00:44:41,830 differently a hundred seven time and so 1081 00:44:48,990 --> 00:44:44,080 the brain can tell whether the the 1082 00:44:51,470 --> 00:44:49,000 envelope is live or not as it were and 1083 00:44:54,120 --> 00:44:51,480 this is very very different than 1084 00:44:55,800 --> 00:44:54,130 conscious awareness and this goes to my 1085 00:44:57,420 --> 00:44:55,810 statement that I think that healing 1086 00:45:00,960 --> 00:44:57,430 might be an autonomic response to need 1087 00:45:03,120 --> 00:45:00,970 that I'm not aware of anything other 1088 00:45:05,280 --> 00:45:03,130 than I'm in a noisy ugly environment and 1089 00:45:06,750 --> 00:45:05,290 that somebody's putting something in my 1090 00:45:07,830 --> 00:45:06,760 hand and taking it out of my hand and 1091 00:45:09,420 --> 00:45:07,840 putting something on my hand and taking 1092 00:45:10,710 --> 00:45:09,430 that on my head I can't tell the 1093 00:45:12,630 --> 00:45:10,720 difference consciously I'm not aware of 1094 00:45:14,880 --> 00:45:12,640 anything I'm not I'm not a psychic I'm 1095 00:45:17,040 --> 00:45:14,890 not sensitive I'm nothing like that I'm 1096 00:45:20,190 --> 00:45:17,050 just lying in a tube but my brain is 1097 00:45:24,120 --> 00:45:20,200 responding and it knows and so if it 1098 00:45:25,740 --> 00:45:24,130 need is expressed the brain does I gonna 1099 00:45:27,420 --> 00:45:25,750 say turns on but I don't know what turns 1100 00:45:29,520 --> 00:45:27,430 on means the brain responds very 1101 00:45:32,660 --> 00:45:29,530 differently then if it's just a touch to 1102 00:45:36,540 --> 00:45:32,670 the brain and so here again I get to 1103 00:45:39,000 --> 00:45:36,550 consciously healing doesn't require a 1104 00:45:42,300 --> 00:45:39,010 conscious anything it doesn't require a 1105 00:45:44,370 --> 00:45:42,310 belief it doesn't require a particular 1106 00:45:48,060 --> 00:45:44,380 state of mind and off to be flopping on 1107 00:45:50,190 --> 00:45:48,070 the floor I don't have to be spiritual I 1108 00:45:52,800 --> 00:45:50,200 want to be anything interesting very 1109 00:45:55,650 --> 00:45:52,810 interesting hypothesis I have to jump on 1110 00:45:58,140 --> 00:45:55,660 that word spiritual I think it's it's 1111 00:46:00,130 --> 00:45:58,150 just fascinating topic and it's 1112 00:46:02,770 --> 00:46:00,140 something we've tried to a pro 1113 00:46:04,360 --> 00:46:02,780 in this show a lot because let me take 1114 00:46:05,800 --> 00:46:04,370 this in a slightly different direction 1115 00:46:07,510 --> 00:46:05,810 and try and make a connection very 1116 00:46:09,520 --> 00:46:07,520 interested to hear your opinion on this 1117 00:46:11,650 --> 00:46:09,530 we've looked at the near-death 1118 00:46:14,500 --> 00:46:11,660 experience research quite a bit on this 1119 00:46:16,810 --> 00:46:14,510 show because it challenges this idea 1120 00:46:19,660 --> 00:46:16,820 this kind of ridiculous materialistic 1121 00:46:21,550 --> 00:46:19,670 idea that mind equals brain and it 1122 00:46:24,880 --> 00:46:21,560 challenges directly because these people 1123 00:46:28,720 --> 00:46:24,890 in an NDE situation don't have a brain 1124 00:46:30,400 --> 00:46:28,730 anymore and yet we know from the many 1125 00:46:32,620 --> 00:46:30,410 experiments that have done and the many 1126 00:46:35,920 --> 00:46:32,630 clinical papers that have been published 1127 00:46:37,120 --> 00:46:35,930 they do still have a mind they do still 1128 00:46:40,210 --> 00:46:37,130 have an experience they have a 1129 00:46:43,090 --> 00:46:40,220 consciousness that extends beyond that 1130 00:46:45,820 --> 00:46:43,100 and that immediately puts you 1131 00:46:48,130 --> 00:46:45,830 full frontal with the spiritual be 1132 00:46:49,720 --> 00:46:48,140 because that's part of the report too is 1133 00:46:51,640 --> 00:46:49,730 that these people have this spiritual 1134 00:46:52,930 --> 00:46:51,650 experience and then that you have to 1135 00:46:55,600 --> 00:46:52,940 correlate with other people have had 1136 00:46:59,260 --> 00:46:55,610 spiritually transformative experiences 1137 00:47:01,000 --> 00:46:59,270 so it kind of leads to it in your case 1138 00:47:03,070 --> 00:47:01,010 if we're really going to be honest it 1139 00:47:05,800 --> 00:47:03,080 leads you in the other direction almost 1140 00:47:08,440 --> 00:47:05,810 because what you're saying essentially 1141 00:47:10,960 --> 00:47:08,450 is that that the spiritual doesn't come 1142 00:47:13,870 --> 00:47:10,970 into it at all and this area that has 1143 00:47:16,600 --> 00:47:13,880 often been associated with spirituality 1144 00:47:19,510 --> 00:47:16,610 and this extended consciousness thing 1145 00:47:21,130 --> 00:47:19,520 you're saying I don't see any link not 1146 00:47:25,270 --> 00:47:21,140 that I'm looking for it but it isn't 1147 00:47:27,730 --> 00:47:25,280 presenting itself this idea of spiritual 1148 00:47:30,910 --> 00:47:27,740 connection well do you have any thoughts 1149 00:47:34,390 --> 00:47:30,920 on either what this consciousness 1150 00:47:37,560 --> 00:47:34,400 extending beyond bodily death might mean 1151 00:47:40,120 --> 00:47:37,570 or how that's connected to this or how 1152 00:47:42,460 --> 00:47:40,130 spirituality in general is connected to 1153 00:47:47,140 --> 00:47:42,470 your work first of all I think the 1154 00:47:50,500 --> 00:47:47,150 near-death experience research is just 1155 00:47:52,630 --> 00:47:50,510 fascinating it's beautiful 1156 00:47:54,130 --> 00:47:52,640 I mean do you look at some of the stuff 1157 00:47:56,490 --> 00:47:54,140 come at the University of Virginia for 1158 00:47:59,050 --> 00:47:56,500 example and Bruce Grayson and those guys 1159 00:48:01,260 --> 00:47:59,060 it's beautiful stuff I mean it makes you 1160 00:48:03,610 --> 00:48:01,270 you got to sit up and take notice 1161 00:48:06,820 --> 00:48:03,620 something serious is going on there I 1162 00:48:08,890 --> 00:48:06,830 actually have a paper coming out I don't 1163 00:48:11,290 --> 00:48:08,900 know maybe this month what I did among 1164 00:48:13,480 --> 00:48:11,300 other thing is I examine the logs of my 1165 00:48:14,170 --> 00:48:13,490 student volunteers and faculty 1166 00:48:15,880 --> 00:48:14,180 volunteers 1167 00:48:18,250 --> 00:48:15,890 faculty it's harder to get to do the 1168 00:48:20,110 --> 00:48:18,260 logs faculty you're pretty useless but 1169 00:48:22,840 --> 00:48:20,120 students at least some of them can be a 1170 00:48:25,900 --> 00:48:22,850 little more compliant and so when I've 1171 00:48:29,500 --> 00:48:25,910 asked people for example to treat cages 1172 00:48:32,470 --> 00:48:29,510 of mice under various conditions I am 1173 00:48:36,190 --> 00:48:32,480 also asking them to keep a log of their 1174 00:48:39,190 --> 00:48:36,200 thoughts experiences feelings and and so 1175 00:48:41,950 --> 00:48:39,200 on and and so it it was there that I 1176 00:48:46,420 --> 00:48:41,960 really learned the extent of the lack of 1177 00:48:49,210 --> 00:48:46,430 belief of many people for example some 1178 00:48:51,520 --> 00:48:49,220 of the students talked amongst 1179 00:48:53,350 --> 00:48:51,530 themselves and said they really thought 1180 00:48:54,910 --> 00:48:53,360 I was doing studying gullibility and 1181 00:48:56,560 --> 00:48:54,920 that gives you an idea of how little 1182 00:48:58,870 --> 00:48:56,570 they actually believed in healing so 1183 00:49:00,310 --> 00:48:58,880 they thought I was can i trick someone 1184 00:49:01,540 --> 00:49:00,320 to putting their hands around a cage and 1185 00:49:03,250 --> 00:49:01,550 thinking something will happen right 1186 00:49:05,230 --> 00:49:03,260 right so you've asked just so I can I 1187 00:49:07,510 --> 00:49:05,240 can understand it as I explained to 1188 00:49:09,100 --> 00:49:07,520 other folks you said okay you know 1189 00:49:10,690 --> 00:49:09,110 here's the protocol we're gonna follow 1190 00:49:14,500 --> 00:49:10,700 and you have to do this experiment and 1191 00:49:16,090 --> 00:49:14,510 oh by the way keep this log of just your 1192 00:49:18,400 --> 00:49:16,100 kind of personal journal of what you 1193 00:49:20,470 --> 00:49:18,410 went through and lo and behold you look 1194 00:49:22,480 --> 00:49:20,480 at the personal journal and they say you 1195 00:49:26,110 --> 00:49:22,490 know I I know he's asking me to do this 1196 00:49:28,660 --> 00:49:26,120 but I think this is really an experiment 1197 00:49:32,380 --> 00:49:28,670 on whether I'm gullible enough to follow 1198 00:49:34,510 --> 00:49:32,390 these ridiculous procedures they thought 1199 00:49:36,250 --> 00:49:34,520 I was just screw with the heads which 1200 00:49:39,730 --> 00:49:36,260 apparently I was but thankfully I 1201 00:49:41,680 --> 00:49:39,740 intended and so so they really didn't 1202 00:49:44,530 --> 00:49:41,690 believe it stuff but but also some of 1203 00:49:46,120 --> 00:49:44,540 them after they settled in and the first 1204 00:49:48,310 --> 00:49:46,130 time we put your hands around a cage of 1205 00:49:50,260 --> 00:49:48,320 cancerous mice you're gonna feel a 1206 00:49:52,720 --> 00:49:50,270 little awkward you know it's eight at 1207 00:49:54,640 --> 00:49:52,730 least and and after a while you get used 1208 00:49:55,900 --> 00:49:54,650 to it and you're coming into the lab and 1209 00:50:00,550 --> 00:49:55,910 you're doing whatever it is you're doing 1210 00:50:03,160 --> 00:50:00,560 and sometimes you're just alone with the 1211 00:50:05,800 --> 00:50:03,170 mice sometimes you're with other people 1212 00:50:09,790 --> 00:50:05,810 and sometimes sometimes something 1213 00:50:12,790 --> 00:50:09,800 happens and I say sometimes so in the 1214 00:50:17,380 --> 00:50:12,800 logs and talking to the people what I 1215 00:50:20,200 --> 00:50:17,390 have is a variety of subjective 1216 00:50:23,620 --> 00:50:20,210 experiences that the people have gone 1217 00:50:26,340 --> 00:50:23,630 through and some of them feel nothing 1218 00:50:28,120 --> 00:50:26,350 think this is this is complete nonsense 1219 00:50:29,530 --> 00:50:28,130 they couldn't 1220 00:50:33,130 --> 00:50:29,540 Bell spirituality if their life depended 1221 00:50:35,590 --> 00:50:33,140 on it and others feel the connection and 1222 00:50:37,980 --> 00:50:35,600 something happens at sometimes and 1223 00:50:44,560 --> 00:50:37,990 sometimes it happens at quiet moments 1224 00:50:48,400 --> 00:50:44,570 and it is they feel something other in a 1225 00:50:51,130 --> 00:50:48,410 connection with their mice so the first 1226 00:50:53,590 --> 00:50:51,140 statement would be the people in the 1227 00:50:58,360 --> 00:50:53,600 experiments have the range of experience 1228 00:51:01,630 --> 00:50:58,370 that run from nothing to what is that 1229 00:51:05,620 --> 00:51:01,640 something's going on and it turns out 1230 00:51:09,070 --> 00:51:05,630 the difference among them is not related 1231 00:51:12,820 --> 00:51:09,080 at all to the success or failure rate of 1232 00:51:13,900 --> 00:51:12,830 healing so the people who are feeling 1233 00:51:17,350 --> 00:51:13,910 nothing at all 1234 00:51:20,800 --> 00:51:17,360 heal the same as the people who are 1235 00:51:24,640 --> 00:51:20,810 feeling something and it occurred to me 1236 00:51:29,050 --> 00:51:24,650 after a while that perhaps we have the 1237 00:51:31,780 --> 00:51:29,060 causal direction backwards back to your 1238 00:51:34,150 --> 00:51:31,790 point of the need of the need yeah so 1239 00:51:36,490 --> 00:51:34,160 people who have been have hurt people 1240 00:51:39,910 --> 00:51:36,500 and I now have you know a bunch of 1241 00:51:40,840 --> 00:51:39,920 healers and such and and they they some 1242 00:51:43,480 --> 00:51:40,850 of them go through 1243 00:51:46,390 --> 00:51:43,490 I don't know healing rituals and some of 1244 00:51:48,490 --> 00:51:46,400 them go through they they they're like 1245 00:51:50,950 --> 00:51:48,500 clearing their minds and they're they're 1246 00:51:52,840 --> 00:51:50,960 doing all these kinds of things and and 1247 00:51:56,950 --> 00:51:52,850 so they're trying to get what you could 1248 00:51:59,830 --> 00:51:56,960 loosely call into a spiritual frame of 1249 00:52:02,710 --> 00:51:59,840 mind you know I did it for a day but 1250 00:52:05,260 --> 00:52:02,720 they're they're trying to become 1251 00:52:08,470 --> 00:52:05,270 spiritual and they think that if they 1252 00:52:10,680 --> 00:52:08,480 become spiritual or experience spiritual 1253 00:52:13,690 --> 00:52:10,690 things that that will enhance healing 1254 00:52:16,750 --> 00:52:13,700 that healing is an outgrowth of a 1255 00:52:19,450 --> 00:52:16,760 particular spiritual state of mind and I 1256 00:52:22,330 --> 00:52:19,460 suspect that this is backwards that the 1257 00:52:25,570 --> 00:52:22,340 causal sequence is backwards that I 1258 00:52:27,910 --> 00:52:25,580 think that the sense of connection which 1259 00:52:31,060 --> 00:52:27,920 I'll take is generically similar to 1260 00:52:34,960 --> 00:52:31,070 spirituality the sense of connection is 1261 00:52:39,670 --> 00:52:34,970 a consequence of healing not the cause 1262 00:52:42,170 --> 00:52:39,680 and those people who are more sensitive 1263 00:52:44,989 --> 00:52:42,180 to that experience 1264 00:52:47,749 --> 00:52:44,999 we'll feel it and those people who are 1265 00:52:50,180 --> 00:52:47,759 not sensitive to that experience will 1266 00:52:52,130 --> 00:52:50,190 not feel it and that doesn't seem to 1267 00:52:56,660 --> 00:52:52,140 matter in terms of the efficacy of 1268 00:52:58,640 --> 00:52:56,670 healing it seems to matter as simply if 1269 00:53:01,249 --> 00:52:58,650 you're open to having that experience 1270 00:53:04,400 --> 00:53:01,259 but I think healing occurs nonetheless 1271 00:53:07,099 --> 00:53:04,410 and is not related directly it's not a 1272 00:53:09,410 --> 00:53:07,109 consequence of that feeling so you don't 1273 00:53:11,210 --> 00:53:09,420 I wouldn't recommend get into a 1274 00:53:13,940 --> 00:53:11,220 spiritual state of mind and try to heal 1275 00:53:15,259 --> 00:53:13,950 I would say just heal I mean just 1276 00:53:17,359 --> 00:53:15,269 healing for crying out loud it's a 1277 00:53:20,809 --> 00:53:17,369 natural thing and the sense of 1278 00:53:24,470 --> 00:53:20,819 spirituality is is a sensation you have 1279 00:53:25,670 --> 00:53:24,480 in your conscious mind I don't know that 1280 00:53:27,920 --> 00:53:25,680 the conscious mind is particularly 1281 00:53:30,410 --> 00:53:27,930 relevant any of this stuff but then 1282 00:53:33,470 --> 00:53:30,420 you're using conscious there in a very 1283 00:53:36,380 --> 00:53:33,480 narrow way that that we understand it 1284 00:53:38,059 --> 00:53:36,390 right because the whole work that you're 1285 00:53:39,249 --> 00:53:38,069 talking about challenges our 1286 00:53:42,049 --> 00:53:39,259 understanding of consciousness 1287 00:53:44,480 --> 00:53:42,059 especially when we when we look at how 1288 00:53:45,650 --> 00:53:44,490 that's embedded in a scientific 1289 00:53:47,390 --> 00:53:45,660 establishment that doesn't even 1290 00:53:49,640 --> 00:53:47,400 acknowledge that there is such a thing 1291 00:53:51,470 --> 00:53:49,650 as consciousness so I mean it's it's 1292 00:53:53,779 --> 00:53:51,480 hard to really write these things down 1293 00:53:56,630 --> 00:53:53,789 one thing I wanted to touch on it 1294 00:53:58,339 --> 00:53:56,640 because it did cross my mind and I'm 1295 00:54:02,239 --> 00:53:58,349 sure a lot of people are thinking about 1296 00:54:05,809 --> 00:54:02,249 this you can at point sound like this 1297 00:54:08,239 --> 00:54:05,819 cruel you know the ultimate cruel animal 1298 00:54:11,479 --> 00:54:08,249 killer experimenter who's you know 1299 00:54:13,609 --> 00:54:11,489 injecting all these mice with cancer and 1300 00:54:15,259 --> 00:54:13,619 you had just a beautiful little tidbit 1301 00:54:18,380 --> 00:54:15,269 in an interview I heard where you said 1302 00:54:22,130 --> 00:54:18,390 you know you're much more morally 1303 00:54:26,120 --> 00:54:22,140 outraged at the idea as long as well as 1304 00:54:29,989 --> 00:54:26,130 the efficacy of killing cancer cells in 1305 00:54:32,720 --> 00:54:29,999 a petri dish then you are with the 1306 00:54:36,979 --> 00:54:32,730 necessity of performing these 1307 00:54:41,680 --> 00:54:36,989 experiments on these mice raised a 1308 00:54:45,229 --> 00:54:41,690 couple of interesting things one is I am 1309 00:54:48,499 --> 00:54:45,239 very uncomfortable with doing animal 1310 00:54:52,489 --> 00:54:48,509 research just because I'm uncomfortable 1311 00:54:55,400 --> 00:54:52,499 I don't know how else to do it so the 1312 00:54:58,010 --> 00:54:55,410 the kinds of things that I have done 1313 00:55:00,079 --> 00:54:58,020 there is no alternative to doing it the 1314 00:55:01,849 --> 00:55:00,089 way I do it at least as far as I'm aware 1315 00:55:03,079 --> 00:55:01,859 right now hey and let's interject 1316 00:55:04,880 --> 00:55:03,089 something there because it's a really 1317 00:55:08,210 --> 00:55:04,890 good point that you make you know you do 1318 00:55:10,010 --> 00:55:08,220 the same experiment with people and you 1319 00:55:11,510 --> 00:55:10,020 just try and heal people and you run 1320 00:55:13,789 --> 00:55:11,520 into all sorts of problems 1321 00:55:15,770 --> 00:55:13,799 experimentally and the main one is that 1322 00:55:19,039 --> 00:55:15,780 they come to you once and they never 1323 00:55:20,839 --> 00:55:19,049 come back they don't that yet so you 1324 00:55:23,870 --> 00:55:20,849 would not be able to produce results 1325 00:55:25,309 --> 00:55:23,880 that would have any chance not that your 1326 00:55:26,299 --> 00:55:25,319 results in general have any chance of 1327 00:55:28,039 --> 00:55:26,309 changing the medical establishment 1328 00:55:31,430 --> 00:55:28,049 because history would suggest that they 1329 00:55:34,279 --> 00:55:31,440 don't but you wouldn't even be on the 1330 00:55:36,140 --> 00:55:34,289 radar if you weren't doing this in a 1331 00:55:39,200 --> 00:55:36,150 very controlled way that you can do with 1332 00:55:41,809 --> 00:55:39,210 the thousand mice in a cage right no you 1333 00:55:44,329 --> 00:55:41,819 have people and I I mean you really 1334 00:55:47,240 --> 00:55:44,339 can't make any conclusions from from 1335 00:55:50,750 --> 00:55:47,250 doing people that are that are worth too 1336 00:55:53,870 --> 00:55:50,760 much in my opinion so let's say you had 1337 00:55:56,000 --> 00:55:53,880 10 people who who came to you and you 1338 00:55:59,299 --> 00:55:56,010 did these healing techniques on 10 1339 00:56:02,900 --> 00:55:59,309 people and they all got better you you 1340 00:56:05,210 --> 00:56:02,910 don't know what did it so you don't know 1341 00:56:06,950 --> 00:56:05,220 whether it was their diet you don't know 1342 00:56:08,480 --> 00:56:06,960 whether it was they got more sleep they 1343 00:56:09,049 --> 00:56:08,490 got less sleep they got you know who 1344 00:56:11,960 --> 00:56:09,059 knows 1345 00:56:14,329 --> 00:56:11,970 so people are ugly in the sense that 1346 00:56:17,210 --> 00:56:14,339 they don't produce clean data and it 1347 00:56:20,029 --> 00:56:17,220 gets worse that as you point out they 1348 00:56:21,740 --> 00:56:20,039 don't come back so the odds of getting 1349 00:56:24,980 --> 00:56:21,750 10 people to follow all the way through 1350 00:56:26,720 --> 00:56:24,990 is are extremely remote in the case of 1351 00:56:29,299 --> 00:56:26,730 the mice and the reason that it's such a 1352 00:56:30,859 --> 00:56:29,309 beautiful model is you have thousands 1353 00:56:32,420 --> 00:56:30,869 and thousands of experiments you know 1354 00:56:34,099 --> 00:56:32,430 exactly what's going to happen you know 1355 00:56:36,440 --> 00:56:34,109 the conditions which will produce what 1356 00:56:39,910 --> 00:56:36,450 effects you know all those things and 1357 00:56:43,849 --> 00:56:39,920 you can make reasonably hard conclusions 1358 00:56:45,950 --> 00:56:43,859 so without the mice you'd have a bunch 1359 00:56:48,799 --> 00:56:45,960 of people that you hear stories about 1360 00:56:51,230 --> 00:56:48,809 and the people had a condition and then 1361 00:56:52,880 --> 00:56:51,240 someone said hocus-pocus and wave their 1362 00:56:54,710 --> 00:56:52,890 arms and then the condition left Welli 1363 00:56:58,039 --> 00:56:54,720 are you going to tie the two together I 1364 00:57:03,410 --> 00:56:58,049 don't know maybe it was the vitamin C 1365 00:57:05,120 --> 00:57:03,420 they took who knows so a skeptic doesn't 1366 00:57:08,700 --> 00:57:05,130 have a way to come to a firm conclusion 1367 00:57:12,359 --> 00:57:08,710 there so bill back to the the moral 1368 00:57:14,849 --> 00:57:12,369 problems of killing those cancer cells 1369 00:57:15,780 --> 00:57:14,859 in a petri dish I think that's a really 1370 00:57:18,720 --> 00:57:15,790 interesting point 1371 00:57:21,630 --> 00:57:18,730 well it sounds facetious but I think 1372 00:57:22,079 --> 00:57:21,640 that in in my crazy way of looking at 1373 00:57:24,960 --> 00:57:22,089 the world 1374 00:57:27,780 --> 00:57:24,970 I think the healing should heal if you 1375 00:57:29,700 --> 00:57:27,790 have cancer cells in a petri dish or a 1376 00:57:32,970 --> 00:57:29,710 well plate or whatever your storage 1377 00:57:36,300 --> 00:57:32,980 facility is and a healer comes along and 1378 00:57:39,510 --> 00:57:36,310 does whatever their healing thing is 1379 00:57:41,400 --> 00:57:39,520 then presumably the the outcome is to 1380 00:57:44,640 --> 00:57:41,410 the benefit of that which their healing 1381 00:57:47,180 --> 00:57:44,650 cancer in a in a test tube we'll call it 1382 00:57:49,320 --> 00:57:47,190 has no need other than to reproduce 1383 00:57:52,410 --> 00:57:49,330 that's what struck me about that 1384 00:57:56,520 --> 00:57:52,420 statement is it immediately shifted my 1385 00:57:58,620 --> 00:57:56,530 my awareness from these mice who are 1386 00:57:59,970 --> 00:57:58,630 dying which is really kind of like you 1387 00:58:03,390 --> 00:57:59,980 said a terrible horrible thing to think 1388 00:58:05,430 --> 00:58:03,400 about - why did I focus on that as 1389 00:58:07,800 --> 00:58:05,440 opposed to these cells why did I 1390 00:58:10,370 --> 00:58:07,810 immediately you know jump right into the 1391 00:58:14,339 --> 00:58:10,380 middle of this assumed hierarchical 1392 00:58:17,099 --> 00:58:14,349 importance of life you know and I think 1393 00:58:19,140 --> 00:58:17,109 you draw to that and I think taking it 1394 00:58:22,050 --> 00:58:19,150 in a totally different direction what 1395 00:58:24,450 --> 00:58:22,060 are the implications for that in terms 1396 00:58:26,670 --> 00:58:24,460 of how we do this kind of medical 1397 00:58:32,160 --> 00:58:26,680 research because as your research 1398 00:58:34,380 --> 00:58:32,170 suggests maybe cancer cells in a test 1399 00:58:38,160 --> 00:58:34,390 tube or in a petri dish have a different 1400 00:58:41,810 --> 00:58:38,170 need than the cells in a mouse and 1401 00:58:43,980 --> 00:58:41,820 therefore you know what kind of crazy 1402 00:58:47,430 --> 00:58:43,990 experimental effect are we introducing 1403 00:58:50,160 --> 00:58:47,440 that's kind of mucking up all our data 1404 00:58:52,380 --> 00:58:50,170 when we look at the test tube yeah I 1405 00:58:53,670 --> 00:58:52,390 actually wrote an editorial about this 1406 00:58:56,460 --> 00:58:53,680 for the Journal of alternative and 1407 00:58:59,130 --> 00:58:56,470 complementary medicine they asked me to 1408 00:59:02,010 --> 00:58:59,140 write an editorial and and the real 1409 00:59:03,690 --> 00:59:02,020 short version was there was a group of 1410 00:59:06,030 --> 00:59:03,700 Joe ray practitioners Joe raised a 1411 00:59:08,010 --> 00:59:06,040 particular method of healing 1412 00:59:09,870 --> 00:59:08,020 I don't know how to do it but but it 1413 00:59:13,820 --> 00:59:09,880 alleges to produce healing effects and 1414 00:59:17,430 --> 00:59:13,830 they got a bunch of Joe ray healers who 1415 00:59:19,200 --> 00:59:17,440 intended healing had a bunch of cancer 1416 00:59:22,109 --> 00:59:19,210 cells they had six different kinds of 1417 00:59:25,200 --> 00:59:22,119 cancer a couple of human couple of 1418 00:59:27,269 --> 00:59:25,210 a mouse and they were intending to these 1419 00:59:30,059 --> 00:59:27,279 we'll just call them pet petri dishes 1420 00:59:31,980 --> 00:59:30,069 they were intending to these healing and 1421 00:59:34,859 --> 00:59:31,990 and what they found was they had a 1422 00:59:38,279 --> 00:59:34,869 significant increase in the death rate 1423 00:59:42,900 --> 00:59:38,289 of these cells and I got alarmed 1424 00:59:44,759 --> 00:59:42,910 I got alarmed and I thought whoa well I 1425 00:59:46,319 --> 00:59:44,769 mean this this this could be reasonably 1426 00:59:48,329 --> 00:59:46,329 profound about what this says about 1427 00:59:50,700 --> 00:59:48,339 healing and certainly what it says about 1428 00:59:52,769 --> 00:59:50,710 intent because if these people were 1429 00:59:55,499 --> 00:59:52,779 intending healing yet they had an 1430 00:59:57,809 --> 00:59:55,509 increase in cell death does that mean 1431 00:59:59,730 --> 00:59:57,819 that intention doesn't matter is it 1432 01:00:04,230 --> 00:59:59,740 possible that you intend healing yet 1433 01:00:06,210 --> 01:00:04,240 killing results and so if this was 1434 01:00:08,819 --> 01:00:06,220 likened or you could see the direct 1435 01:00:11,460 --> 01:00:08,829 analogy to something like radiation 1436 01:00:13,650 --> 01:00:11,470 so here the healer is going is that SAP 1437 01:00:16,559 --> 01:00:13,660 and and the cells are dying at a 1438 01:00:18,749 --> 01:00:16,569 particular rate an increased rate of 1439 01:00:21,180 --> 01:00:18,759 death and and so I found that 1440 01:00:25,079 --> 01:00:21,190 particularly interesting that maybe 1441 01:00:29,099 --> 01:00:25,089 these healers are not healing maybe this 1442 01:00:31,559 --> 01:00:29,109 is more of a psychokinetic effect that 1443 01:00:34,079 --> 01:00:31,569 they had an intention what they consider 1444 01:00:35,999 --> 01:00:34,089 healing was really to kill cells mhm and 1445 01:00:39,239 --> 01:00:36,009 I don't consider that healing at all 1446 01:00:42,210 --> 01:00:39,249 mm-hmm yeah be careful what your what 1447 01:00:44,339 --> 01:00:42,220 your intentions really are yes well 1448 01:00:48,210 --> 01:00:44,349 maybe a second kinetic effect going see 1449 01:00:53,009 --> 01:00:48,220 if we can change or kill cells or do all 1450 01:00:54,690 --> 01:00:53,019 that and maybe it works but I I the way 1451 01:00:56,729 --> 01:00:54,700 it was described in the paper 1452 01:00:59,009 --> 01:00:56,739 the healers intended healing and I 1453 01:01:01,680 --> 01:00:59,019 thought this would make sense you know 1454 01:01:05,190 --> 01:01:01,690 and of course the idea of intending harm 1455 01:01:07,559 --> 01:01:05,200 and intending killing is something that 1456 01:01:09,539 --> 01:01:07,569 our government has investigated for 1457 01:01:11,789 --> 01:01:09,549 quite some time I mean the movie yeah 1458 01:01:13,200 --> 01:01:11,799 men that stare at goats and Jon Ronson 1459 01:01:15,599 --> 01:01:13,210 is somebody we've had on the show even 1460 01:01:17,099 --> 01:01:15,609 though he's kind of a skeptical bent if 1461 01:01:18,989 --> 01:01:17,109 you talk to the really the people who 1462 01:01:21,269 --> 01:01:18,999 really were involved in those projects 1463 01:01:24,630 --> 01:01:21,279 they said yeah we were trying to do that 1464 01:01:26,279 --> 01:01:24,640 we were trying to focus that ability 1465 01:01:28,410 --> 01:01:26,289 well it doesn't sound like they had 1466 01:01:29,880 --> 01:01:28,420 nearly that the deeper understanding of 1467 01:01:31,769 --> 01:01:29,890 it than you did but then we'll never 1468 01:01:34,259 --> 01:01:31,779 know because we will never see that 1469 01:01:35,640 --> 01:01:34,269 research but yeah it does bring up some 1470 01:01:39,060 --> 01:01:35,650 thorny issues in terms 1471 01:01:41,310 --> 01:01:39,070 of intention and psychokinesis yeah if 1472 01:01:44,670 --> 01:01:41,320 you could intention in psychokinesis 1473 01:01:46,320 --> 01:01:44,680 screw up cells and increase cell death 1474 01:01:48,600 --> 01:01:46,330 and do all those kinds of things you 1475 01:01:50,970 --> 01:01:48,610 know wonderful show me the evidence and 1476 01:01:52,860 --> 01:01:50,980 I but I would just conceptually consider 1477 01:01:55,040 --> 01:01:52,870 that to be different than healing so you 1478 01:01:56,430 --> 01:01:55,050 get for example the wonderful 1479 01:01:58,950 --> 01:01:56,440 experiments done at Princeton 1480 01:02:00,740 --> 01:01:58,960 engineering and in the pear lab for 1481 01:02:04,620 --> 01:02:00,750 about 30 years 1482 01:02:06,330 --> 01:02:04,630 can can a consciousness deliberately 1483 01:02:08,880 --> 01:02:06,340 affect the outcome of a random number 1484 01:02:11,490 --> 01:02:08,890 generator well they have 30 years of 1485 01:02:14,250 --> 01:02:11,500 data that I mean de yes the answer is 1486 01:02:16,500 --> 01:02:14,260 yes the consciousness can affect the 1487 01:02:17,820 --> 01:02:16,510 outcome of a random number generator I 1488 01:02:19,650 --> 01:02:17,830 mean there's no question at this point 1489 01:02:22,920 --> 01:02:19,660 they have literally millions of trials 1490 01:02:25,110 --> 01:02:22,930 and you can come in there and make a 1491 01:02:27,270 --> 01:02:25,120 little call an electronic coin flip or 1492 01:02:29,250 --> 01:02:27,280 come out more heads than it ought to or 1493 01:02:31,050 --> 01:02:29,260 make it come out more tails that I go up 1494 01:02:34,350 --> 01:02:31,060 to and when a consciousness inserts 1495 01:02:37,140 --> 01:02:34,360 itself then the outcome changes when the 1496 01:02:39,570 --> 01:02:37,150 consciousness other inserts itself the 1497 01:02:42,660 --> 01:02:39,580 outcome goes back to chance and so 1498 01:02:45,750 --> 01:02:42,670 that's a psychokinetic effect I think 1499 01:02:49,650 --> 01:02:45,760 that's different than healing and so I I 1500 01:02:51,030 --> 01:02:49,660 did some experiments that I I haven't 1501 01:02:52,350 --> 01:02:51,040 published yet because I need a whole 1502 01:02:57,360 --> 01:02:52,360 bunch of replications before I'll 1503 01:03:01,680 --> 01:02:57,370 publish anything but if the essentially 1504 01:03:04,320 --> 01:03:01,690 it was treating the medium in which the 1505 01:03:06,720 --> 01:03:04,330 cancer cells are grown so these are in 1506 01:03:09,510 --> 01:03:06,730 vitro and treating the medium in which 1507 01:03:13,380 --> 01:03:09,520 the cancer cells are grown so you have 1508 01:03:15,450 --> 01:03:13,390 the nutrients the medium that I mean you 1509 01:03:18,870 --> 01:03:15,460 put cancer cells in them and they that's 1510 01:03:21,990 --> 01:03:18,880 their food what happens if you intend 1511 01:03:23,610 --> 01:03:22,000 healing to the medium in which the 1512 01:03:26,400 --> 01:03:23,620 cancer cells are grown that's the 1513 01:03:28,770 --> 01:03:26,410 question and it turns out that we had at 1514 01:03:30,660 --> 01:03:28,780 least an increase of 600 percent growth 1515 01:03:32,430 --> 01:03:30,670 in cancer cells Wow 1516 01:03:35,610 --> 01:03:32,440 you know kind of scared the lab a little 1517 01:03:37,800 --> 01:03:35,620 bit it ate for the graduate assistants 1518 01:03:39,750 --> 01:03:37,810 you know things like that and so the 1519 01:03:42,450 --> 01:03:39,760 cancer went crazy now that's pretty 1520 01:03:43,800 --> 01:03:42,460 interesting I'm not surprised I mean I 1521 01:03:45,630 --> 01:03:43,810 was a little shocked by the by the 1522 01:03:47,790 --> 01:03:45,640 strength of the effect cuz it was until 1523 01:03:49,410 --> 01:03:47,800 he didn't have to do any statistics this 1524 01:03:52,829 --> 01:03:49,420 wasn't a subtle effect 1525 01:03:56,400 --> 01:03:52,839 oh six a little more six hundred percent 1526 01:03:58,530 --> 01:03:56,410 increase in cancer cell growth that's 1527 01:03:59,789 --> 01:03:58,540 healing now what would happen I don't 1528 01:04:01,339 --> 01:03:59,799 know the answer incidentally what would 1529 01:04:03,750 --> 01:04:01,349 happen if you took that same 1530 01:04:05,700 --> 01:04:03,760 supercharged cancer which I would 1531 01:04:09,059 --> 01:04:05,710 consider having been healed because 1532 01:04:11,730 --> 01:04:09,069 cancer does what it divides mm-hmm 1533 01:04:13,799 --> 01:04:11,740 if you if you read the book the emperor 1534 01:04:16,069 --> 01:04:13,809 of all maladies which is a biography of 1535 01:04:18,299 --> 01:04:16,079 cancer has a wonderful line in there 1536 01:04:21,180 --> 01:04:18,309 saying that cancer is a more perfect 1537 01:04:25,140 --> 01:04:21,190 version of ourselves that get your 1538 01:04:26,940 --> 01:04:25,150 attention you know so cancer divides it 1539 01:04:28,890 --> 01:04:26,950 doesn't know how to stop dividing so 1540 01:04:30,450 --> 01:04:28,900 it's got a short term incredible success 1541 01:04:33,480 --> 01:04:30,460 rate with a not a great long term 1542 01:04:35,299 --> 01:04:33,490 strategy and and and so you know haven't 1543 01:04:39,329 --> 01:04:35,309 thought things through its kind of like 1544 01:04:42,809 --> 01:04:39,339 capitalism so so you're looking for 1545 01:04:44,430 --> 01:04:42,819 quarterly profits cancer goes nuts and 1546 01:04:48,660 --> 01:04:44,440 beats out everybody else and has no loss 1547 01:04:50,039 --> 01:04:48,670 which if you heal that it should get 1548 01:04:51,750 --> 01:04:50,049 what it wants and what does it want to 1549 01:04:54,660 --> 01:04:51,760 do it wants to keep going and that's 1550 01:04:57,299 --> 01:04:54,670 that's what happened now if we took that 1551 01:05:00,299 --> 01:04:57,309 same supercharged cancer and injected it 1552 01:05:04,079 --> 01:05:00,309 into a mouse what would happen I don't 1553 01:05:06,660 --> 01:05:04,089 know I got to do this but my suspicion 1554 01:05:08,599 --> 01:05:06,670 is it would then collapse because you'd 1555 01:05:12,599 --> 01:05:08,609 have a lot of energy in the system and 1556 01:05:15,150 --> 01:05:12,609 the cancer I suspect is a group of cells 1557 01:05:17,970 --> 01:05:15,160 not in communication with its neighbors 1558 01:05:20,010 --> 01:05:17,980 and if what the organism needs is to 1559 01:05:22,140 --> 01:05:20,020 communicate with the cancer you're not 1560 01:05:25,500 --> 01:05:22,150 killing you're healing so healing in 1561 01:05:27,329 --> 01:05:25,510 that in that conceptual model is saying 1562 01:05:31,079 --> 01:05:27,339 to cancer come play with us 1563 01:05:32,910 --> 01:05:31,089 well it's an amazing body of work then 1564 01:05:34,890 --> 01:05:32,920 and I love that phrase come play with us 1565 01:05:36,809 --> 01:05:34,900 because I think the whole body of work 1566 01:05:38,370 --> 01:05:36,819 invites us come play with us I mean 1567 01:05:41,099 --> 01:05:38,380 that's that's what it's saying come 1568 01:05:44,309 --> 01:05:41,109 figure me out come understand what this 1569 01:05:46,620 --> 01:05:44,319 means give folks a sense for the scope 1570 01:05:49,039 --> 01:05:46,630 of this bill because you have so many 1571 01:05:51,809 --> 01:05:49,049 great stories but you have this 1572 01:05:53,250 --> 01:05:51,819 fantastic book the energy cure 1573 01:05:55,109 --> 01:05:53,260 unraveling the mystery of hands on 1574 01:05:57,329 --> 01:05:55,119 healing but you also have numerous 1575 01:05:59,400 --> 01:05:57,339 numerous peer-reviewed paper give us a 1576 01:06:02,339 --> 01:05:59,410 sense for the scope of what you've 1577 01:06:03,089 --> 01:06:02,349 published out there oh I've got stuff on 1578 01:06:05,969 --> 01:06:03,099 say 1579 01:06:07,069 --> 01:06:05,979 locking a brains on cancer emitting in 1580 01:06:10,859 --> 01:06:07,079 mice on 1581 01:06:14,279 --> 01:06:10,869 EEG stuff on functional MRI stuff on I 1582 01:06:16,289 --> 01:06:14,289 think I have a pretty novel idea of how 1583 01:06:18,509 --> 01:06:16,299 placebos work with an actual linkage 1584 01:06:19,920 --> 01:06:18,519 between experiment control groups you 1585 01:06:22,499 --> 01:06:19,930 know that kind of stuff so so that I 1586 01:06:23,910 --> 01:06:22,509 mean my interest run pretty wide they 1587 01:06:25,229 --> 01:06:23,920 run pretty wide one of the things I'm 1588 01:06:28,079 --> 01:06:25,239 interested in that you mentioned the 1589 01:06:31,890 --> 01:06:28,089 energy cure as the book I also have a 1590 01:06:33,960 --> 01:06:31,900 companion CD set which I'm interested in 1591 01:06:36,599 --> 01:06:33,970 about the question of can healing be 1592 01:06:38,999 --> 01:06:36,609 taught and I published a paper a couple 1593 01:06:41,400 --> 01:06:39,009 years ago on the question can healing be 1594 01:06:44,279 --> 01:06:41,410 taught and I've gotten a lot of flack 1595 01:06:46,019 --> 01:06:44,289 for that people yelling in my face and 1596 01:06:48,239 --> 01:06:46,029 stuff you like saying you're an idiot of 1597 01:06:49,650 --> 01:06:48,249 course it can be taught and I said well 1598 01:06:51,180 --> 01:06:49,660 do you have any evidence and of course 1599 01:06:54,749 --> 01:06:51,190 they say we don't need evidence and I 1600 01:06:56,489 --> 01:06:54,759 said well I'm scared of you that it it 1601 01:06:58,259 --> 01:06:56,499 turns out although most healers 1602 01:06:59,039 --> 01:06:58,269 virtually every healer has been taught 1603 01:07:02,609 --> 01:06:59,049 by someone 1604 01:07:03,960 --> 01:07:02,619 no one has pre post tests let me just 1605 01:07:07,140 --> 01:07:03,970 interject something here I mean it's 1606 01:07:10,559 --> 01:07:07,150 this is not like some money scam thing 1607 01:07:14,459 --> 01:07:10,569 this thing is 40 bucks on Amazon right 1608 01:07:16,229 --> 01:07:14,469 so it's not like you're really trying to 1609 01:07:19,859 --> 01:07:16,239 engage as many people as you can 1610 01:07:22,019 --> 01:07:19,869 obviously in this in this work and kind 1611 01:07:24,359 --> 01:07:22,029 of create this social experiment as well 1612 01:07:27,390 --> 01:07:24,369 right yeah it's interesting to me Kent 1613 01:07:29,160 --> 01:07:27,400 can someone not can someone listen to 1614 01:07:31,079 --> 01:07:29,170 this stuff learn the techniques and then 1615 01:07:34,440 --> 01:07:31,089 do it themselves I have a group in a 1616 01:07:37,009 --> 01:07:34,450 hospital I don't want to mention in in 1617 01:07:40,229 --> 01:07:37,019 Delaware actually that are trying this 1618 01:07:41,819 --> 01:07:40,239 so they're in a particular division of 1619 01:07:45,029 --> 01:07:41,829 the hospital and they're there have a 1620 01:07:47,519 --> 01:07:45,039 group of people listening to the CDs and 1621 01:07:49,109 --> 01:07:47,529 then trying some healing sperms they're 1622 01:07:50,940 --> 01:07:49,119 starting simple with things on plants 1623 01:07:54,059 --> 01:07:50,950 and such but they're hoping to get to a 1624 01:07:57,209 --> 01:07:54,069 full-fledged experimental design with 1625 01:08:00,059 --> 01:07:57,219 with animals I have someone else about 1626 01:08:01,829 --> 01:08:00,069 to do an experiment at a at a medical 1627 01:08:03,630 --> 01:08:01,839 school I don't want to mention because I 1628 01:08:06,120 --> 01:08:03,640 don't know how aboveboard it is there 1629 01:08:09,690 --> 01:08:06,130 how much is hidden but a medical school 1630 01:08:12,299 --> 01:08:09,700 is about to try a replication of the my 1631 01:08:15,059 --> 01:08:12,309 stuff using the healing techniques 1632 01:08:16,860 --> 01:08:15,069 so whether healing can be taught and and 1633 01:08:18,810 --> 01:08:16,870 what is the pre post is 1634 01:08:20,460 --> 01:08:18,820 a pretty interesting question that's 1635 01:08:22,140 --> 01:08:20,470 among my publications to assert answers 1636 01:08:23,970 --> 01:08:22,150 your other questions well well bill it's 1637 01:08:27,210 --> 01:08:23,980 it's just an amazing body of work we've 1638 01:08:28,500 --> 01:08:27,220 only we've taken a hour and 15 minutes 1639 01:08:29,790 --> 01:08:28,510 here but we've really really just 1640 01:08:32,250 --> 01:08:29,800 scratched the surface and as we've 1641 01:08:34,800 --> 01:08:32,260 talked about there's so many research 1642 01:08:36,090 --> 01:08:34,810 possibilities out there we just have to 1643 01:08:38,610 --> 01:08:36,100 encourage everyone go out get that 1644 01:08:41,010 --> 01:08:38,620 tenure and then call Bill up in the hell 1645 01:08:42,510 --> 01:08:41,020 hell yeah I guess getting tenure up get 1646 01:08:43,800 --> 01:08:42,520 yourself tenure in a lab and I'll feed 1647 01:08:45,450 --> 01:08:43,810 you hundreds of research questions 1648 01:08:46,860 --> 01:08:45,460 because I don't have enough time to do 1649 01:08:49,440 --> 01:08:46,870 everything that needs to be done and 1650 01:08:51,360 --> 01:08:49,450 it's it's also interesting and every 1651 01:08:53,670 --> 01:08:51,370 time we do an experiment it never comes 1652 01:08:56,220 --> 01:08:53,680 out the way he expected to which is the 1653 01:08:58,110 --> 01:08:56,230 fun well it's been terrific having you 1654 01:09:00,570 --> 01:08:58,120 on thanks again so much for joining me 1655 01:09:02,340 --> 01:09:00,580 today thank you very much thanks again 1656 01:09:04,380 --> 01:09:02,350 to Bill Bengston for joining me today on 1657 01:09:07,230 --> 01:09:04,390 skeptic Oh a couple of discussion 1658 01:09:09,900 --> 01:09:07,240 questions arty up here first is the how 1659 01:09:13,020 --> 01:09:09,910 can it be questioned how can such utter 1660 01:09:15,870 --> 01:09:13,030 leer evolutionary paradigm busting 1661 01:09:17,850 --> 01:09:15,880 research fly underneath the radar it 1662 01:09:20,250 --> 01:09:17,860 seems to me that the Cancer Research 1663 01:09:22,410 --> 01:09:20,260 community or should I say the cancer 1664 01:09:25,350 --> 01:09:22,420 research industry needs to either 1665 01:09:28,020 --> 01:09:25,360 provide overwhelming evidence that the 1666 01:09:30,330 --> 01:09:28,030 peer-reviewed published research papers 1667 01:09:32,820 --> 01:09:30,340 of dr. Bankston aren't worth the paper 1668 01:09:35,640 --> 01:09:32,830 they're written on or roll up their 1669 01:09:37,290 --> 01:09:35,650 sleeves and get busy and figure out what 1670 01:09:40,230 --> 01:09:37,300 the heck he's doing here 1671 01:09:42,090 --> 01:09:40,240 the second question i tee up would 1672 01:09:44,760 --> 01:09:42,100 really take us in a completely different 1673 01:09:48,330 --> 01:09:44,770 direction and that is what is dr. 1674 01:09:50,190 --> 01:09:48,340 Bankston telling us about belief he's 1675 01:09:52,650 --> 01:09:50,200 really going against everything that 1676 01:09:55,140 --> 01:09:52,660 we've been conditioned to understand in 1677 01:09:58,620 --> 01:09:55,150 terms of how belief works how prayer 1678 01:10:00,600 --> 01:09:58,630 works how the placebo effect works he's 1679 01:10:02,790 --> 01:10:00,610 got some interesting theories on where 1680 01:10:05,070 --> 01:10:02,800 that might lead us but I'd like to hear 1681 01:10:08,430 --> 01:10:05,080 your thoughts on what you think his 1682 01:10:10,470 --> 01:10:08,440 research tells us about belief so if 1683 01:10:12,360 --> 01:10:10,480 you'd like to connect with me and/or the 1684 01:10:14,970 --> 01:10:12,370 rest of the skeptical community and 1685 01:10:19,370 --> 01:10:14,980 discuss these questions place to do it 1686 01:10:22,200 --> 01:10:19,380 is the skeptic Oh website at ske pti 1687 01:10:24,690 --> 01:10:22,210 koat.com you can connect to our forum 1688 01:10:27,180 --> 01:10:24,700 and link up with us there you can leave 1689 01:10:29,670 --> 01:10:27,190 comments directly on the website or you 1690 01:10:30,240 --> 01:10:29,680 can shoot off an email or a Facebook 1691 01:10:32,820 --> 01:10:30,250 note 1692 01:10:34,950 --> 01:10:32,830 me and will try and connect that way I 1693 01:10:37,440 --> 01:10:34,960 have many interesting skeptical shows 1694 01:10:40,320 --> 01:10:37,450 coming up the topics keep pouring in and 1695 01:10:42,540 --> 01:10:40,330 as always I just kind of go with my gut 1696 01:10:44,460 --> 01:10:42,550 in terms of following areas that I'm 1697 01:10:46,230 --> 01:10:44,470 interested in pursuing and it hopefully 1698 01:10:49,200 --> 01:10:46,240 it'll all come together into something 1699 01:10:52,050 --> 01:10:49,210 that makes sense and moves this dialogue 1700 01:10:54,480 --> 01:10:52,060 forward and as always I encourage you to 1701 01:10:56,340 --> 01:10:54,490 get involved in that process if you have 1702 01:10:58,950 --> 01:10:56,350 a topic that you're passionate about 1703 01:11:01,440 --> 01:10:58,960 that you think fits within the skeptical 1704 01:11:03,690 --> 01:11:01,450 framework send me an email and tell me 1705 01:11:05,790 --> 01:11:03,700 what you'd like to do to get that topic 1706 01:11:08,430 --> 01:11:05,800 covered I don't just need you to suggest 1707 01:11:10,470 --> 01:11:08,440 to guests I need you to roll up your 1708 01:11:12,960 --> 01:11:10,480 sleeves and get involved and figure out 1709 01:11:14,970 --> 01:11:12,970 how we make that happen and if you're 1710 01:11:17,340 --> 01:11:14,980 interested in getting involved in that 1711 01:11:19,130 --> 01:11:17,350 way and helping produce a show I'm 1712 01:11:21,570 --> 01:11:19,140 interested in helping you do that 1713 01:11:24,150 --> 01:11:21,580 skeptic Oh is designed to be a 1714 01:11:26,100 --> 01:11:24,160 collective community effort and I want 1715 01:11:28,650 --> 01:11:26,110 to encourage that as much as I can 1716 01:11:31,530 --> 01:11:28,660 well that's gonna do it for today for